Monk Animals

[Coredump]

Please explain to me how the physics of a spinning kick and the physics of a claw attack differ.

Almost diametrically opposed. A claw attack uses one 'arm' and bats/scratches at an opponent. The spinning kick uses the entire body to set up tons of angular momentum in order to do damage.

To me this is not a simple black and white issue, and I can always due without the opinions of rules lawyers. Yes the rules call a natural weapon and an unarmed strike different attacks, but a creature that isn't a typical humanoid shape can take monk levels no problem under the rules, so why wouldn't they be able to adapt the monks abilities to suit their own physiology?

There is a chance you are arguing the same point.
People agree (so far) that the jaguar can use paw/body/whatever to perform a monk-type-unarmed-strike. *And* the jaguar can bite/claw with their natural weapons. Heck, they can even do them on the same round. The issue people are having, is the concept that being a monk, will make the jaguar be much better at a straight claw attack.
Now, this being the rules forum, most folks are pretty concerned about what the rules say. And the rules are pretty black and white on the subject, you can do monk attacks, and do unarmed strike damage, you can do claw/bite attacks, and do claw/bite damage; but you cannot do claw/bite attacks and do unarmed damaged. (or even augmented claw/bite damage)


Now, you are not following the rules; which is okay. But now problems have developed, which awere directly caused by your house rules; so you may want to consider dropping that house rule.


Now, if you want suggestions about how to handle this, regardless of the rules.....

Personally, I can see the logic of jaguar attacks getting better because of the increased knowledge from being a monk, so I have no problem with increasing their claw/bite damage.
OTOH, if you want to think of it logically. If a person is trained how to be a monk by other humans, using human techniques....I don't think it is logical for them to be allowed to use these same monk abilities as a jaguar; they are just totally different body types.
So logically, I could see increasing the claw/bite damage, but disallowing the monk attacks.

OTOOH, it could easily be asserted that the types of attacks and techniques a monk would use, would *not* help a jaguar scratch someone better than they already can.



(Furthermore, it makes no logical sense to me to allow any creature to have both class attacks *and* natural attacks, at least not the way they are handled now. But that is the gist of a separate thread.)

 

[Anubus]

Okay so perhaps house rules would have been a better place for this, but I never even really considered it a house rule. Nothing was changed, just adapted to fit a race of creatures that were jaguar instead of human, perhaps I just defined a house rule actually but anyway...

I have to disagree with those calling the physics of a claw attack and a spinning kick different. True you are using very different muscle groups, and the way things look will be very different, but the source of the energy, or the aesthetics of the motions, doesn't affect the kinetics of the action. Both actions are a sweeping motion from the extreme range of the object in motion given the limit of physical properties of the objects in question, brought across to target. Both are a pendulum limited by the respected circumfrences, whether they are the length of a human leg, or the length of an animal leg. Now whether you actually connect with the target with the object at the the edge of the circumfrence, ie claw, or further toward the center, ie foot or paw, is irrelevent since this will only affect how much force is transferred or retained by the pendulum.
If someone can point out a logical flaw in that then please do, maybe it will help me understand your points of view better.

 

[Tonguez]

If a person is trained how to be a monk by other humans, using human techniques....I don't think it is logical for them to be allowed to use these same monk abilities as a jaguar; they are just totally different body types.
So logically, I could see increasing the claw/bite damage, but disallowing the monk attacks.

Anubus this is the logical flaw in your argument. A Human and a Jaguar have entirely different body types and use their muscles differently (which was my point when I mentioned the forelimb/arm above). I assume flurry is designed to optimise use of muscles - so human flurry techniques DO NOT work the same as Jaguar flurry techniques

Now you could get a level of Human monk training + a level of Jaguar Monk training (which however would be a PrC and a whole diffrent discussion), but assuming that 1 level of monk training applies regardless of shape is where this all breaks down

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I have to disagree with those calling the physics of a claw attack and a spinning kick different. True you are using very different muscle groups, and the way things look will be very different, but the source of the energy, or the aesthetics of the motions, doesn't affect the kinetics of the action.

You've answered your own question.

 

[Storyteller01]

True enough, but honestly how is a claw attack fundamentally any different than a punch, there's no reason she couldn't paw someone instead, like those declawed cats for example, which would make the attacks "unarmed". So why couldn't she use her two "paw" attacks, then her flurry of blows with her paws, and still get 4 or 5 attacks with the d10, with just the bite staying at d6? Or perhaps sticking closer to the rules a flurry with one paw, then a regular claw and bite as additional weapons?

Different bio-mechanics. Punches and clws are not the same.

Did the monk master Tiger Kung-Fu? If the monk mastered a similar style, then maybe. The Tiger claw strike is similar to a cat's claw attack (It was modeled after it). If there were extenuating circumstances (such as the mionk learning a style modeled after an animal) it might work.

They may view the transformation as a means of attaining perfection in their style.

 

[Storyteller01]

Please explain to me how the physics of a spinning kick and the physics of a claw attack differ.

You don't want to go to that route. We WILL break out the rulers and calulators for you...

 

[Angel of Adventure]

Do you all think that a monk/ape could use flurry of blows? If it was a dire ape, would it still be able to rend?

-AoA

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Okay so perhaps house rules would have been a better place for this, but I never even really considered it a house rule. Nothing was changed, just adapted to fit a race of creatures that were jaguar instead of human, perhaps I just defined a house rule actually but anyway...

Letting monk level increase natural weapon damage is not the way the monk rules normally work, and is therefore a house rule. If you want to use your monk attacks in jaguar form, it'd look like this (assuming 16 strength and no Multiattack feat):

Option 1 (normal flurry): +9/+9/+4 (1d10+3).
Option 2 (unarmed attacks+natural weapons): +9/+4 (1d10+3); 2 claws +4 (claw damage+1); bite +4 (bite damage +1)
Option 3 (natural attacks): 2 claws +9 (claw damage +3); bite +4 (bite damage +1).

It is my understanding that flurry of blows does not allow other extra attacks, but I am not certain of that point.

EDIT: I'd be inclined to let the monk do slashing damage with her unarmed attacks.

 

[Storyteller01]

Check Dragon Mag 319 (the one about Dark Sun). They have A PrC called the Shen.

It's for monks who've studied animals to learn combat techniques. They actually gain the ability to shape into hybrid versions of these animals. While in hybrid form, their base damage type changes (from blugeoning to piercing or slashing as appropriate). They do maintain their monk AC and damage bonuses in these forms, even when they have unique body mechanics (like the Mantis hybrid). Some even gain bites as an extra attack.

I should mention that the damage done does not increase (so they don't gain a 1d6 claw attack in addition to their monk damage), only the weapon being used (claws, fangs, etc).

I'd say, if the player specifically states that their style enulates the animal, then yes (this tends to create RP challenges later). If they didn't, then no you cvan't combine the two.

 

[ken-ichi]

The 3.5 FAQ pretty much explains exactly what happens with monk with natural attacks:

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s an 8th-level monk.
Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he may make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry).

So the question you have to ask is the bolded section applicable to a panther. Is a panther normally allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same routine? I would have to say a panther is not normally allowed to make weapon attacks, so it is not allowed to make monk unarmed strikes in addition to natural attacks.
It would then have to choose to make monk attacks or to make natural attacks in a round.
This is probably a safe decision because a high level monk in cat form with the pounce and rake ability is looking at 10 attacks on a charge. 5 monk unarmed strikes with flurry and 2 claw, 1 bite, and 2 rake attacks. Not something that I would want to deal with.
Now if you had a wemic (lion centaur-like creature) that has a bite, claws, pounce, rake, and arms to allow it to wield weapons, then you are looking at a ton of attacks.