Monk supernatural abilities and others

[Infiniti2000]

From the SRD:

And, your point is ...? I'm not sure you followed what I was saying. Even so, your quote is irrelevant because the Abundant Step explicitly identifies the caster level: "Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down)." So, it's not equal to the HD. In fact, it has nothing to do with hit dice.

My point, however, was that if you don't use the full spell details (just the textual description), then you have no idea what the range will be. However, if you do use the full spell details (like I suggest is per the rules), then you cannot arbitrarily throw out (e.g.) the Target line and keep the Range line.

Thus, I say that the rules say that you can take others with you on an Abundant Step.

 

[Deset Gled]

Again there is a reference to "a monk" and to "as if" using the spell which, on seem to contradict each other.

I believe this type of language is consistent with other D+D spells, and should allow for the monk to bring other people with them.

Take, for example, the Dimension Door spell:

Dimension Door
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4, Travel 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.
If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.
If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

The spell opens with the fact that the caster can be transfered, and later clarifies that others can be taken as well. This is analogous to the Abundant Step text, which first states that the monk can be transfered, and then clarifies that it works as the spell, allowing others to be transported. The "as if" should be seen as a clarification, not a contradiction.

But then if you want to be that pedantic, it says "a monk." Not a monk plus his/her gear. So, either you can bring others (note the much lower CL) or you can't take your gear with you. Pick one.

How about option 3: the monk can bring others, but only if the others are also monks.

 

[FCWesel]

However, the immediately brings up the problem of what range does the ability have. Abundant Step lists a CL such that we can use the range and any other pertinent parts, like targets.

Uhm, nope. They solve that problem right in the text of the description.

Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).

Monks get abundant step (dmiension door ability) and the ability to go ethereal. Both of these state 'as if...' refering to the specific spells. Both spells allow for bringing other characters or gear along. Is this allowed for the monk? Or can the monk only bring himself and his normal gear? Does being heavily loaded interfere with these abilities?

By the quoted rules above, it is meant for the Monk alone, that he cannot take others with him. (But he can take whatever he carries on him, because D&D is built on the idea of "not taking stuff away from PCs with their own spells", like shapechange and polymorph, where gear transforms with the wearer.) If anything just think of it (as with anything else with the monk) as a mastery of his own body energies.

"A monk can...as if using the spell..." Which means he's NOT using the spell, the effect ON HIM is just SIMILAR to that. Basically they are trying not to re-write an ability that they already have in the book. If he was meant to have full access to the spell, they would have said, "the Monk Casts Dimension Door at X level."


EDIT: Another thing to look at is OTHER classes with abilities that mimic spells and see how they read or are designed. The Paladin's "Remove Disease" ability says: "At 6th level, a paladin can produce a remove disease effect, as the spell, once per week. She can use this ability one additional time per week for every three levels after 6th (twice per week at 9th, three times at 12th, and so forth)."

Just something to consider.



Now allowing it because you want your games to be more cinematic is a whole different ball game. Go for it and have mighty, mighty fun.

 

[Deset Gled]

(But he can take whatever he carries on him, because D&D is built on the idea of "not taking stuff away from PCs with their own spells", like shapechange and polymorph, where gear transforms with the wearer.)

Polymorph does exactly the opposite of what you describe here. All equipment melds into the new form. See the latest errata.

"A monk can...as if using the spell..." Which means he's NOT using the spell, the effect ON HIM is just SIMILAR to that. Basically they are trying not to re-write an ability that they already have in the book. If he was meant to have full access to the spell, they would have said, "the Monk Casts Dimension Door at X level."

The couldn't say that the monk casts DD without making the ability an actual spell or spell like ability. They wanted it to be supernatural, hence different language. Also, if you claim that the ability is not the same as the spell, how do you know what specific parts of the ability are different from the spell and which are the same?

Any comment to my above post showing the same language used in the Abundant Step ability in other places? How does the ability work if you try to Step with another monk?

EDIT: Another thing to look at is OTHER classes with abilities that mimic spells and see how they read or are designed. The Paladin's "Remove Disease" ability says: "At 6th level, a paladin can produce a remove disease effect, as the spell, once per week. She can use this ability one additional time per week for every three levels after 6th (twice per week at 9th, three times at 12th, and so forth)."

Remove Disease is a spell-like ability, not a Supernatural one. Even then, I am at a loss to see how "as the spell" means something drastically different than "as if using the spell".

 

[The Blue Elf]

I consider it a Showdancer ablity but thats all I would consider it.

 

[Legildur]

And, your point is ...? I'm not sure you followed what I was saying. Even so, your quote is irrelevant because the Abundant Step explicitly identifies the caster level: "Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down)." So, it's not equal to the HD. In fact, it has nothing to do with hit dice.

must have been a senior's moment..... striking at an early age.

Thus, I say that the rules say that you can take others with you on an Abundant Step.

You know, I think you are right. At least in that your position is obviously defensible. I don't believe that the monk can take others with him, but I can't pin my response on a RAW answer.

Looking at the Bebilith's Plane Shift (Su) example on p42 of the MM, it explicitly states that "This ability affects only the bebilith. It is otherwise similar to the spell (caster level 12th)."

That is how I believe the monk's Abundant Step ability should have been worded. With the absence of the restriction I find it hard to reject your position, by the RAW.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Uhm, nope. They solve that problem right in the text of the description.

They solve the range problem? What range can the monk (e.g. 12th level) use Abundant Step at (without using the Range line in the d-door spell description)? If you use the Range line, you're not following along.

By the quoted rules above, it is meant for the Monk alone, that he cannot take others with him.

C'mon now. We've already quote that rule and suddenly your interpretation is so crystal clear you don't need to explain it? By that rule quoted above, it is meant for the monk and anyone willing he's touching, depending on the CL.

(But he can take whatever he carries on him, because D&D is built on the idea of "not taking stuff away from PCs with their own spells", like shapechange and polymorph, where gear transforms with the wearer.) If anything just think of it (as with anything else with the monk) as a mastery of his own body energies.

I'm flabbergasted. You allude to "spells" and yet ignore the spell description referred to here to support your position because it's not a spell. I completely object to your hypocrisy.

 

[Legildur]

I'm flabbergasted. You allude to "spells" and yet ignore the spell description referred to here to support your position because it's not a spell. I completely object to your hypocrisy.

Man, where's the web-cam for the vid clip when you need it?

I'd love to have seen your body language and expression had this been a face-to-face discussion! No offence intended, but the language used invoked an image of passion and energy.