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Monk - what do you like and dislike?

jbuck

First Post
sorry bout the spell. i didn't look at the range of the spell just the effects and the duration...
my DM gave out several potions (7, i think) when we successfully nailed his 3rd lvl npc wizard n took all his stuff (the DM was going to have him throw off his cloak and smash most of the bottles). the VoP specifically says that you are allowed to take potions, as long as they are supplied by another partymember.

PS. thanks for the info, i think i should probably go tell my DM about his mistake now, cause that monk is just reaking havok, notin can hit him. Ah arn't high ACs fun
 

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Mad Mac

First Post
Monks belt, broken? In the hands of a Druid, sure. For a monk, all it gives is a +1 AC and modest damage buff for 11,000 gp and takes up the Belt of Giant Strength slot. I rarely bother with it. I'm not sure it does anything if you're past a certain level either. There's no documented unarmed damage progression past level 20, so if you already have your 2d10...
 


Dannyalcatraz said:
Whether you agree or not, a Monk's Unarmed Strike has been ruled to be a valid target of INA, so he's on solid footing there.

This wasn't explained at all clearly in the core rules. Is this errata, or just FAQ? What about iteratives, etc? What does it do to solve the monk's lack of attack bonus problem?

Mad Mac said:
onks belt, broken? In the hands of a Druid, sure.

Unless you house rule that it only works on monks, it's broken. The moment you let a monk have it, you can't tell if the monk will give it up for a Belt of Strength and give it to the druid...
 

Gizzard

First Post
Mad Mac said:
Monks belt, broken? In the hands of a Druid, sure. For a monk, all it gives is a +1 AC and modest damage buff for 11,000 gp and takes up the Belt of Giant Strength slot. I rarely bother with it. I'm not sure it does anything if you're past a certain level either. There's no documented unarmed damage progression past level 20, so if you already have your 2d10...

I dont think this is correct. The Monk's Belt lets a Monk operate as if he was 5 levels higher, which gives him a big bump in damage output, potentially two ranks of damage dice at some levels (3rd,7th etc.) Though the L12 Monk I DMed had this item, it still didn't help him compared to the fighter.

For Druids I don't see how getting +1AC and a 1d8 unarmed attack for $11K is broken. OTOH, this is a Monk thread, so I guess I don't care, I don't want to get sidetracked by this question. ;-)
 

Mad Mac

First Post
Last I checked, some people interpreted the belt as letting a Druid add his Wis bonus to AC when unarmored....no small advantage, that.

Anyway, Monks Belt with Monks. Best used at odd levels like 7. Hmm. For a 7th level monk, he can spend over half his gold to up his unarmed damage from 1d8 to 2d6. Increasing his average damage from 4.5 to 7. Wowsers. :\ Absolute best scenario for the monk is to increase his unarmed damage by around 4 points, and thats only true for one level. (For instance, an 11th level monk can use the belt to go from 1d10 to 2d8, but at 12th level, it's just 2d6 to 2d8.

I'd still rather get the St buff and the crucial attack bonus that comes with it. I mean, I don't think it's bad or anything, but broken? Eh.
 

EamonNerbonne

First Post
Fixing the monk

The monk in 3.5 is definitely broken:

- it multiclasses poorly:
- it's simultaneously front-loaded (ridiculously high wis AC bonus at first level), and extremely weak at first level
- they're weak throughout all level I've seen em played, whether STR based or DEX/WIS based
- they completely break the usual balance of power between equipment and character class
- they depend on at least 4 stats pretty heavily, and 5 depending on how you're playing: generally, for a monk to be anything other than a boring, optionless, underpowered fighter, you need some int for a few skills.

Somebody in this thread said the damage dealt (2d10) was overpowering. I'm only really interested in levels 1-10, since the game becomes less interesting (complete chaos and imbalance) afterwards.

Obviously a fighter is more powerful than a monk and I'm not really interested in attempting to fix that. Also I don't like heavy usage of non-core rules; There are essentially an unlimited number, and they often interact with each other in ways that are completely unbalancing. Frankly I'ld rather fix the core monk than hack it with questionably splatbookness...

Looking at levels 1-10, the monk certainly fairs better in the high levels, but it's still hopeless: level 8 is a really nice monk level in which he gains a third attack and the damage goes up by 1 die size. There, a monk will deal around 1d10 +3 damage depending on strength and other things. A non-raged barbarian (which I frequently compare to because it can move at a similar pace) can easily have a flaming greatsword +1 at this level, and with a little luck even a +3 equiv. +1 vicious flaming greatsword... 18-22 strength is pretty normal (roll 16, half-orc, +2 on levelling, +2 magic item), meaning he's doing +9 damage from strength alone, dealing 3d6+10 damage - conservatively, because if he's got the vicious sword it's up to 5d6+10 damage. That's without power attack - but if you wanted a fair comparison of the first hit, you'ld have to take into account that the monk has a +6bab, +3str, +1 arbitrary magic item, +1 weapon focus - maybe? which is a +11 modifier, and our un-raged barbarian has like +8bab,+6str,+1WF,+1weapon, which is +16. those +5 translate to 10 damage if you're power attacking to the same attack bonus.

I know I'm pushing it; but only slightly; and the conclusion still is that the barbarian is going to be dealing 5d6+20 damage (Unraged!!!) when the monk is going to be dealing 1d10+3. As to spells: unless you have time to meticulously prepare a battle, you're not going to be all that buffed generally, and a wise spellcaster knows whose chances he should be maximizing here: The barbarian's. Who should get the enlarge person do you think?

Why this focus on the first hit? because that's often really important. Certainly all other hits thereafter are less relevant as a battle is usually decided early on. So it's fun to have a monk running around, but to maximize your chances, you want lots of damage right away (works veeerry nice with cleave too...). Another problem with flurry of blows is that you need to be next to the player before the full round attack is possible. That's a dangerous place to be, esp. for a character with fewish hit points.

So you have this melee fighter class which has this really neat fast running speed, but can't really use very well it without spring attack (which it won't get fast without many feats), and isn't actually all that fast at normal levels, and actually only really deals damage when it stops running and is a sitting duck, and even then, has a hard time hitting high-AC opponents, and potentially has an even harder time against larger lower-AC opponnents (which will namely smash him to bits). He's resistant to spells, but not actually all that much more resistant on low levels, he might possibly have a high AC, much good that it'll do him because the rest of his party on whom he depends for crucial buffs will long be dead by the time a high-AC monk with correspondingly pitiful damage actually kills any opponents.

Monks, as written, are an extremely specialized flavor class, which can, in some very specific circumstances be unbalancingly powerful, but simply tends to be really weak, and has some nasty front-loading issues.

If I still haven't convinced you the monk is about as useful as a trained duck, compare him to a monk/druid (who can actually turn into a duck):

Let's be honest, can anyone think of a situation in which a monk is a better fit for a party than a monk(1)/Druid(9) that simply shapeshifts and coincidentally has almost complete spellcasting progression? The previous party I played in was reasonably high magic (approx 2-3 times starting gold), and it contained a wild-shaping druid monk that was actually much poorer that the rest of the party (only about 1.5 times starting gold), but completely dominated all the battles, virtually never entering battle below 30AC, and more normally flying around in direbat shape at 40-45 AC(!) casting animal growthed-gargantuan nastyness for fun (besides the fact that a first level monk has improved grapple which is simply really,really nasty in combination with wild shapes like the dire lion).

So compare a normal monk, which needs at least four good stats, and has problems all over the board, with such a druid/monk, who only needs 1 good stat (str,dex,con all being replaced by wild shape), and pretty much has advantages over the pure monk everywhere....
 

Stalker0

Legend
Here's a radical idea I've just thought of. As already stated, flurry of blows tends to directly compete with the monks mobility. His offense (from his many attacks) conflicts with his defense (low AC, low hp for a fighter type would prefer to stay out of heavy combat).

Perhaps the answer...is to change flurry of blows completely.

Flurry of Blows: As an immediate action, the monk can take a -2 to attacks and gain the ability to make a number of attacks as if using the full round action or two attacks, whichever is greater. The monk can use flurry of blows when normally limited to one attack, such as on a charge, for an AOO, or when using a standard action to attack instead of a full round action.

So...what's the translation?
This monk still gets 2 attack at 1st level when he flurries, but he doesn't continue to get more attacks as he levels up. Once his BAB is +6, he still only has two attacks, and he gets 3 when his BAB is 11, but that's all his gets...he doesn't get like 5 attacks. However, he gets all his attacks on an attack action, he no longer needs to use a full round action.

So a monk can charge and get 2 attacks, spring attack and get 2 attacks, move and get 2 attacks, even get 2 attacks on a single AOO.

What's good about this?
It moves the monks power into a different niche. This monk doesn't get as many attacks as he once did, but now he gets all his attacks anytime he wants. He doesn't have to sacrifice mobility to get them. He can jump aorund, leap around, do whatever he wants and still score a lot of attacks. Further, he gains an ability no other class emulates. I'm a TWF fighter I can get a lot of attacks. But noone else can attack multiple times on a charge, noone else can move and get a full around attack, noone else can make 2 attacks on an AOO.
 

Imp

First Post
That is pretty interesting. I will have to think about that idea. It could possibly be simplified a little, but it's interesting.
 

xenoflare

First Post
Hi,

I like the monk because I like Asian stuff - well, cos I'm Chinese, and I grew up within that cultural framework, I guess. I like underdog, subaltern heroes who excel through perserverance and dogged determination, and I got my first exposure to the monk in early editions of OA; back then, i guess there wasn't such a big emphasis on level-GP parity? So it was possible to play the peasant weapon-wielding, humble ascetic student alongside Siegfried, Elric, Fafnir etc.

Now in 3.x, well, monks are still a personal favourite of mine, becos i still like the idea of punching and kicking things. i won't go into the whole underdog thing anymore, because the money system in DnD is so whack - i'm wearing clothes that can fuel an entire economy? and i'm a practicioner of "simple unarmed combat?" wth?

I like the monk i guess because of its flavour which some other posters have admitted are their main beef with it. I guess it is essentialist to be mr mumbo-jumbo oriental b.s. monk, to sorta be racist that all Chinese guys know kung fu, all Japs are katana freaks, and all Malays are silat masters. But DnD in its very essence is like that - we have races which are defined as inherently good or evil, or inherently predisposed to certain kinds of behaviour. i'm not going to wail about that - i don't really like it, but hey, some degree of stereotyping is required within the tropes of fantasy, to make it work.

I like being able to take the monk as a tool-kit, to throw it with other classes around as a flavour thing. For example, my fave characters usually involve 4 levels or so of monk, some other levels of another class like psion, wizard, or druid, then going for a monk-ish prestige class. It kinda works together - let's say I want to play a Shaolin monk who's heavily into reincarnation. I could be a Monk 4/ Druid 6/ Nature's warrior 5 or something. I'll be a priestly, unarmed kinda guy whose Wild Shape is a consequence of his memory of his past lives, of drawing upon the chi that is for all purposes - in that worldview - the world.

But having said that, it brings in all the things i don't like about the monk.

There's nothing sacred about it.

All the leet stuff you wanna get from the monk? Someone else can do it probably better than you can, with more flexibility, to boot. Since DnD is about money-fueled power to a great degree, you can find a way to ignore poison, to dimension door, etc thru your items list. Or you can multiclass after cherry picking a couple of levels of monk to get the frontloaded benefits - once you have even 1 level of monk, you get Wis to AC, you get the nice unarmed damage that you can ramp up with size increases/ feats/ gear/ spells..

That means essentially that dabbling monks - like the nature's warrior i suggested - are in the end more powerful usually than the "pure" monks. And hey... well that affects fighters and rangers too - the fighter/ templar/ weapon master is gonna own more than a pure fighter, and a ranger/ justiciar/ bloodhound is gonna get his mark more than a pure ranger.

So while the monk - as it is - is a fun toolbox for players like me to tweak and twink, i think it's poorly designed as a base class - it does not allow some ppl to enjoy themselves - those who just want to play VIABLE kung-fu men without having to tweak it out the wazoo. i've played in a game with a level 15 monk who's my monastic superior - i'm a monk drop-out from the same temple who went on to explore his own fighting style, and i outperform him through no fault of his own - he was just playing an "orthdox" monk, and i was doing my psion/ monk/ lucid cenobite build..

I'll leave flavour out - because that is quite subjective. But on the final note, the greatest thing about monks i'm peeved at is this.

WTF? NO HADOUKEN FTW?
 

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