D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Esker]

How about 10, since everyone has their big subclass upgrade, and anything definitive of their class, by then, and no one has gotten their big tier upgrade yet.

Could do 10. I'm not wedded to any particular level, I just thought that stopping right after an ASI would keep the impact of the most recent bump more even, since it tends to be the case that classes/subclasses improve in relative standing others right after they get one of their more impactful features; plus 8 is closer to the "middle" of the tier in question. 8th is also a nice number for looking at monks in particular, since it seems reasonable to assume about 8 rounds per short rest, which gives them 1 ki per round.

 

[Helldritch]

Because, by RAW, it takes an Action to don or doff a shield. PHB 146.

If you are letting them dodge and take their action to put on their shield, might be why you see people doing it so much. That's better than the monk's patient defense.

No not a house rule, a mix up. I was thinking of a particuliar fight where it was done, but the paladin was on haste. So yep, in a fight the character would not be able to dodge. Good point.

You keep wanting to say that monks have issues when they run out of ki, but that is frankly not true. Their damage is fine without ki. Stellar? No. The best in the game? No. But solid. Solid enough that I have yet to find a class that is able to do more the 2 damage more than the monk on average without using a resource.

Again, Ki will run out fast. Even with a bonus to ki equal to their wisdom bonus, they run out of ki very fast. They have to be very conservative about how they will spend ki. In your game you talk about 8 rounds worth of fight. In my games, its more about 10 to 12 depending on the difficulty. With the bonus I give them, they still run out of Ki.

Is their AC a bit low? Sure. And, it seems that you target them more often because of it, which likely exaccerbates the problems they have. So, I'd say monks at your table should invest more in the monk subclasses that can deal with ranged attacking and increase their AC, so while they are getting attacked more, they can still contribute.

No not more. I target what is available with a reasonable chance to succeed. If by some luck, the monsters are hitting the highest AC a bit more often in the beginning of the combat, they will target the highest because they will believe that the other unarmored man has some magic against arrows. It is highly dependent on circumstances.

But, I want to remind you, this started with you making the claim that the Monks base attack was sub-par. And now we've retreated to a monk using all their resources in the first fight of the day and retreating to fight at range instead of using their base melee damage, because they have low AC and are therefore targeted probably close to twice as often. While Fighters and Paladins are working with expensive armor, have a houserule to make putting on a shield free, and their base abilities are being counted more highly than the monks, despite this not being true.

And it is, when the Ki runs out. I always talked about Ki running out. Of the five races you picked, only two are available to my players. The wood elf and the human. So by your measure, all monks are and must be wood elf since the variant is the only one that is not optional. And again as for the ones being often targeted, it is highly dependent on the perception of the monsters at that particuliar fight. The monk might not be targeted at all.

I will never claim that monks are perfect. They do have problems. But this analysis is not highlighting the actual problems with monks.

Ok, if their low Ki and ultra heavy reliance on short rest are not the problem. What is it? Why are monks so hated in general? Why are they the second least used class in all games?

For my part, I pointed out their main problem. Fortunately, they don't have them as much in my games than in some others that I have been aware of.

So share your wisdom and tell us. What's their problems?

 

[Chaosmancer]

No not a house rule, a mix up. I was thinking of a particuliar fight where it was done, but the paladin was on haste. So yep, in a fight the character would not be able to dodge. Good point.

Got it

Again, Ki will run out fast. Even with a bonus to ki equal to their wisdom bonus, they run out of ki very fast. They have to be very conservative about how they will spend ki. In your game you talk about 8 rounds worth of fight. In my games, its more about 10 to 12 depending on the difficulty. With the bonus I give them, they still run out of Ki.

2 points

1) Previously you said your game was 7 to 8 rounds, now it is 10 to 12?

2) Your response has nothing to do with what I said. At all.

Me: "Monk Damage is fine without ki"
You: "But even if you give them a bonus to ki, they still run out very fast."

Okay, fine, whatever, Monk damage is fine without Ki. Are they less powerful? Yes, of course they are. But they don't need Ki every single round of the fight.

No not more. I target what is available with a reasonable chance to succeed. If by some luck, the monsters are hitting the highest AC a bit more often in the beginning of the combat, they will target the highest because they will believe that the other unarmored man has some magic against arrows. It is highly dependent on circumstances.

This seems to contradict what you just said, but it is really immaterial.

We can't judge the class based on how a DM chooses to organize monster attacks.

And it is, when the Ki runs out. I always talked about Ki running out. Of the five races you picked, only two are available to my players. The wood elf and the human. So by your measure, all monks are and must be wood elf since the variant is the only one that is not optional. And again as for the ones being often targeted, it is highly dependent on the perception of the monsters at that particuliar fight. The monk might not be targeted at all.

So, judging the class based on your limiting of the options? That isn't a problem with the class.

Barbarian having +2/+1 must be even harder if you limit player options to just Mountain Dwarves with their +2/+2

Also, you seem to really be focused on Ki. Completely ignoring anything else.

But, at least I finally got you to admit that the monk base damage is perfectly fine. It took a long time, but we got there.

Ok, if their low Ki and ultra heavy reliance on short rest are not the problem. What is it? Why are monks so hated in general? Why are they the second least used class in all games?

For my part, I pointed out their main problem. Fortunately, they don't have them as much in my games than in some others that I have been aware of.

So share your wisdom and tell us. What's their problems?

I can't really give answers as to why they are hated. Or why they have the second lowest record of use, as I have seen many monks in my games.

If I had to opine an opinion, it could be that monks are the only base class that has a distinctive flavor disconnect from classical DnD. The monk's more eastern, wuxia inspired aesthetic is not something that is associated with classical DnD.

Their damage drops off by 11, and their late game abilities are pretty poor. Diamond Soul being one of the only exceptions (though, this discussion has gotten me to see how much more powerful Empty Body was than I thought, so that has improved, but likely that is another issue is a misunderstanding of how it works)

Actually, that is another point. Some of the monk abilities are somewhat misunderstood. Like Diamond Soul no one really mentions the reroll ability. I don't think there are many of them, but a few.

The Four Element monk could also be part of the issue. The Open hand isn't exciting and the Four elements is really bad, so there was really only the shadow monk subclass. Limited subclasses, limited people choosing them.

This is all just off the top of my head. I doubt it is AC and damage

 

[FrogReaver]

Could do 10. I'm not wedded to any particular level, I just thought that stopping right after an ASI would keep the impact of the most recent bump more even, since it tends to be the case that classes/subclasses improve in relative standing others right after they get one of their more impactful features; plus 8 is closer to the "middle" of the tier in question. 8th is also a nice number for looking at monks in particular, since it seems reasonable to assume about 8 rounds per short rest, which gives them 1 ki per round.

I like level 8. That's really the level I view monks coming into their own. As you mentioned that's when they get enough ki to use about 1 ki per round.

 

[Asisreo]

What is it? Why are monks so hated in general? Why are they the second least used class in all games?

Y'know what? I just have to say:

The monk class is probably not hated. There isn't even evidence that they are disliked. Being the second least played class does not mean they are disliked even in the slightest by the majority of the community. It only means people played other classes more, on average. It may be because they love the more common classes.

Fighters, wizards, clerics, and bards are iconic. Barbarians and druids are recognizable in an instant. Paladins and rogues are always in the punchline of some joke. Warlocks are the center of the borrowed power trope. Sorcerers and monks are muddier in pop-fiction. Some people see monks as a bruce lee type fighter while others see them as Sabin from FF6. Some people only knows sorcerers from the sorcerer supreme and still don't quite know the difference between him and gandalf.

But there isn't any diffinitive proof that people hate the monk class. It may just fly by people's radar when constructing their favorite character.

 

[Helldritch]

1) Previously you said your game was 7 to 8 rounds, now it is 10 to 12?

Yep, one round of a hard fight. But people seems to count things in rounds, see the post of Esker. So I just added an easy/average fight with a hard fight. That gives about 10 to 12 total for 2 rounds of combat. This means the monk will run out of ki.

Me: "Monk Damage is fine without ki"
You: "But even if you give them a bonus to ki, they still run out very fast."

Okay, fine, whatever, Monk damage is fine without Ki. Are they less powerful? Yes, of course they are. But they don't need Ki every single round of the fight.

Me: Damage without flurry is not good enough. Ki runs out too fast.
You: Damage without Ki is fine... This contradict just about all other posts from the other math lovers... And Ki will not be used only for damage, stunning strike, patient defense etc...

So, judging the class based on your limiting of the options? That isn't a problem with the class.

Barbarian having +2/+1 must be even harder if you limit player options to just Mountain Dwarves with their +2/+2

Also, you seem to really be focused on Ki. Completely ignoring anything else.

But, at least I finally got you to admit that the monk base damage is perfectly fine. It took a long time, but we got there.

As long as they have Ki to fuel their Flurry. Once they run out, woupsi...

I can't really give answers as to why they are hated. Or why they have the second lowest record of use, as I have seen many monks in my games.

If I had to opine an opinion, it could be that monks are the only base class that has a distinctive flavor disconnect from classical DnD. The monk's more eastern, wuxia inspired aesthetic is not something that is associated with classical DnD.

Their damage drops off by 11, and their late game abilities are pretty poor. Diamond Soul being one of the only exceptions (though, this discussion has gotten me to see how much more powerful Empty Body was than I thought, so that has improved, but likely that is another issue is a misunderstanding of how it works)

Actually, that is another point. Some of the monk abilities are somewhat misunderstood. Like Diamond Soul no one really mentions the reroll ability. I don't think there are many of them, but a few.

The Four Element monk could also be part of the issue. The Open hand isn't exciting and the Four elements is really bad, so there was really only the shadow monk subclass. Limited subclasses, limited people choosing them.

This is all just off the top of my head. I doubt it is AC and damage

Now we're talking about the core problem. Forget the rest of this thread. Concentrate on this paragraph. The rest for me is just mathematical gibberish and optimization which I do not like as it does not represent most players.
1) I too, see a lot of monks in my games and they perform quite well, even at high level. I do give them a bit more Ki based on their wisdom, but even then they often run out of Ki. Fortunately, they can count on me for allowing short rests when really needed (and if the story and the narrative would be ok.) If for the reasons in parenthesis, a short rest can't be achieved at the end of the second fight, it will be at the end of the third.

2) Wu Xia flavor might also be a thing. In the minds of many, a monk should be in an Oriental setting. So how to explain that Druids, a European trope, is worst than the monk. I don't think that flavor is the culprit but it might have some impact.

3) A misunderstanding of their abilities might be a clue. Or is it the fact that some abilities come too late where other classes could do it way before the monk? This one I do not know for sure.

4) Is it because one of the subclass in the PHB is really bad? The ranger has one "two" and does not suffer the same stigma with the player base...

5) You doubt it is AC and Damage. I claim that it is exactly this! But not the way you think it is.
It is a matter of perception. Without Ki, the monk loses a lot of damage potential. You showed it yourself.
Without Ki, the monk loses about 5 AC. You showed it yourself.

It is exactly this abrupt drop in performance that must be affecting the players. Because the monk's Ki is so prevalent in all aspect of the special moves of the class, the expenditure of Ki is proportionate with the difficulty of a fight. An easy fight, might see an abysmal expenditure of Ki, whereas a difficult or deadly fight might see multiple expenditure of Ki with every attack (stunning strike, Flurry of blows or Patient defense).

Other classes do not see this kind of set back. The GW wielder will do the same amount of damage wheter he can action surge or not. The casters will still have their cantrips and so on. But the monk can't even Flurry without Ki... The cost of Ki is almost in every special manoeuvers that the monk will do. Be it a stunning strike, patient defense, flurry of blows, step of the wind or a subclass abilities. All the monk's cool things are on a short supply resource.

So in the mind of the monk player, he sees his friend playing other classes able to do their thing in almost optimal ways, while he can't. This must leave a bitter taste in the mouth and leave a bad impression.

You said that monks were fine in your games. Do you allow short rests on a regular basis (about once per 2 or 3 encounters)?
If so, you're just like me. And monks are usually able to manage their Ki so that they are not too starve of their special powers.
But what about those that think that the monk sucks?
Do they rests as per the guidelines, or are rests so rare that Ki is always depleted.
It might be related to that because I often see threads that claims that short rests break the dynamic and the narrative of a game.
It might just be this. The perceptive drop when Ki is depleted. It simply does not pass in the mind of many.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I've followed most of this thread (well, I kind of skim the really long posts) and I have to admit I'm puzzled. Sure, I get the white room analysis arguments. Except that's not what I experience at the table, either when I'm playing a monk, or somebody else is. In some fights the monk doesn't just not suck, he/she is the star of the show.

Here's what I realized: when a fight isn't challenging, I (and other monks) don't use much Ki. We conserve it, and then when we get into a serious fight, we burn it. It works.

So, yeah, if you assume that the monk tries to perform optimally in every fight, the Ki is going to run out pretty fast. But that's not what actually happens.

If you compare this to a truly resource-less class like a rogue, the rogue will out-perform the monk on the easier fights, but then doesn't have any extra "umph" for the serious fights. No special card to pull out of its sleeve. The monk does.

When you average all those fights together, does the rogue do more damage? Maybe? Probably?

Does it matter? I don't think so.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

If you compare this to a truly resource-less class like a rogue, the rogue will out-perform the monk on the easier fights, but then doesn't have any extra "umph" for the serious fights. No special card to pull out of its sleeve. The monk does.

While Rogues are stuck at 10, the Monk goes up to 11.

 

[Guest 6801328]

While Rogues are stuck at 10, the Monk goes up to 11.

Yeah I almost used exactly that metaphor.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Me: Damage without flurry is not good enough. Ki runs out too fast.
You: Damage without Ki is fine... This contradict just about all other posts from the other math lovers... And Ki will not be used only for damage, stunning strike, patient defense etc...

As long as they have Ki to fuel their Flurry. Once they run out, woupsi...

Then tell me what about my math was wrong. I have posted it four to six times, and not a single person has said I'm wrong. So, go back, look at the numbers, and tell me how my numbers are incorrect.

And I'm not posting them again. Six times is enough

5) You doubt it is AC and Damage. I claim that it is exactly this! But not the way you think it is.
It is a matter of perception. Without Ki, the monk loses a lot of damage potential. You showed it yourself.
Without Ki, the monk loses about 5 AC. You showed it yourself.

The damage loss from not flurrying at level 5 is 7.5 damage. That is not a huge drop. Especially since I've been showing their 3 attacks is the same as the greatsword fighter and such.

And, while there is a drop, your perception seems skewed. You see "I lose damage when I can't used resources" I see "I gain damage when I spend resources"

Other classes do not see this kind of set back. The GW wielder will do the same amount of damage wheter he can action surge or not. The casters will still have their cantrips and so on. But the monk can't even Flurry without Ki... The cost of Ki is almost in every special manoeuvers that the monk will do. Be it a stunning strike, patient defense, flurry of blows, step of the wind or a subclass abilities. All the monk's cool things are on a short supply resource.

Slow Fall, Deflect Missiles, MArtial Arts, Evasion, Running on Water or up Walls, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, a few more high levels

Subclasses? Wholeness of Body, Tranquilty, Shadow Step, Cloak of Shadows, Opportunist, Agile Parry, Kensei's Shot, Unerring Accuracy, Searing Sunburst, Sun Shield.

So, maybe this is a perception thing, because realistically? About half of the monk's cool abilties do not take ki

It might just be this. The perceptive drop when Ki is depleted. It simply does not pass in the mind of many.

I think this is pure perception. They are seeing the baseline of the class as being using their ki, where the ki is meant to be a bonus on top of their normal abilities.