Monster creation

[Talaeden_Denthiir]

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. Almost everything about 4E is Amazingly Kick @ss Awesome, but monster creation is really stressful. True, 4E is easier to play out of the box, but not to create your own stuff

Case in point, we all know that in 4E Greatswords get pwn'd and do a measley 1d10 damage. Now, look in your monster manuals on p. 201 and see that the Oni Mage (Large Creature) does 2d6, which is all fine and dandy except that PH 220 says that it should do 1d12. Fire Giant (Large Creature) on MM 123 says 1d12. WT? Plus, along the same vein, Redspawn Firebelcher, MM 88, has 2d6+1 instead of 3d6 +5 for his Fire Belch Power.

Anyways, I'm really stoked about 4E in general, just not this part of it:

1) Monster XP easier to calculate - check
2) Monsters all have unique niche abilities - check
3) Monsters are fun again - check
4) Want to create your own balanced monsters - tough luck

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

4e rocks. I love it. Except this one thing:

<rant>In 3.x you knew where the numbers came from in the monster stat-blocks ...</rant>

When 3.x first came out, I was delighted that the monsters were much like characters. That happiness lasted several years, until I realized it was just too confusing.

I am trying to make a controller variant and figuring out the ‘Attack’ bonus just does not work or WoTC just totally ignored their own rules or I just suck. Here is an example:
The Mad Wraith (p 266) ability: Touch of Madness, +8 vs. Will; Does stuff.

Significant control abilities might warrant a -2 penalty to hit (just like some multi-target/area attacks).

According to the DMG rules (p 184) it should be +10 vs. Will and I can find absolutely no reason why it deviates from that (nor why one of its other ablities is +9 vs Will, shouldn't they at least be the same?).

Now that's plain weird.

 

[Gargazon]

The Mad Wraith (p 266) ability: Touch of Madness, +8 vs. Will; Does stuff.

Does stuff like penalising the target with a -2 penalty to Will defence, which makes the mad wraith's next Touch of Madness a +10 to hit (technically) and also gives all other will-attacking monsters a +2 to hit.

So it actually uses its attack to make itself fit the math, and cause all its allies to break it

 

[Grazzt]

According to the DMG rules (p 184) it should be +10 vs. Will and I can find absolutely no reason why it deviates from that (nor why one of its other ablities is +9 vs Will, shouldn't they at least be the same?). And it is not this one monster, almost all the controllers are like this. The ‘Attack’ vs will/fort/ref seem to have a random deviation +-5 or more points from what it should be.

And yes I know it says:
“Following these steps won’t result in a fully designed and developed monster, but they’ll provide a good approximation.”

Second paragraph answers the first. The guidelines in the DMG give ya the baseline. Deviate from it as you wish based on the feel you want for the monster in question.

Really is no rhyme or reason; it's just monster design is pretty open and free in 4e compared to 'lets make everything like PCs' in 3.x, and you can pretty much do what ya want/feel.

 

[small pumpkin man]

I don’t need them to be hard and fast I just need them to be relatively predictable. And from what I can tell these are just all over the place.

And I think a Dungeon article would be a perfect place to explain this kind of thing.

It is already hard enough to do everything else but I don’t have time to play test every monsters ability for a year. That is why 3.x was so great for making bad guys you just followed the rules (which was basically the same rules for making PCs) and you knew you would have something that would not be crazy over powered or under powered. They might not be perfect… but at least I knew where I went wrong. If I have to hand weave 12 things it is a MUCH harder time troubleshooting a monster.

Uhm, no, it really, REALLY didn't. It had rules for making NPCs(which had their own problems), but the rules for making monsters where "give it bunch of stuff, find a monster with similar stats and give it the same CR". Sorry, that's wrong it also had stuff like "does it have hit dice between it's CR, and three times it's CR? Yes? then it MIGHT be balanced!", "Can your PCs hit it on an 18? No? It's probably not balanced!" and other not overly helpful statements. The 4e ones actually give you a good baseline to start from.

So far it is only the Attack vs Will/Fort/Ref that are giving me an issue. Everything else has not be too bad. I guess I just don’t feel I can trust the baseline in the DMG if the designers couldn’t.

It's not about trusting it, it's about not being bound by them. They're guidelines, not rules, if you use them, your monster should be balanced, but if you know what you're doing you can break them.

If you make creatures with the rules and they're broken, then yes, you have a problem, but complaining about the devs not following them slavishly when it specifically says "You do not have to follow these slavishly" is complaining about problems which don't exist.

 

[ChaosShard]

Yeah, it seems like the ongoing Will Defense penalty and the +5 damage (as opposed to +4 they recommend) reduce the attack by 2 for balance.

Also, where are the minion rules? The Legion Devil minions are all nice and basic, but the Kobold, Ogre and Kruthik don't seem to match up with the creation rules properly.

[I apologize in advance if the below stuff is bad to post, mods please feel free to delete it if I messed up]

For example:

Legion Devil Minion:

Init Bonus: 0
HP: 1 (Minion)
AC: 16 + Level
Defenses: 12 + Level, two of which take a -1 penalty
Attack vs. AC: 5 + Level

Aboleth Servitor Minion:

Init Bonus: 0
HP: 1 (Minion)
AC: 14 + Level
Defenses: 12 + Level, two of which take a -1 penalty, and one of those takes an additional -1 penalty for low abilitiy scores
Attack vs. AC: 3 + Level

So what gives? Granted, both minions have abilities that boost their defenses, but these guys (meaning: every minion I've gone over, aside from the Legion Devils) just feel off mathematically, unless I'm missing something.

Just had a thought: What if the Legion Devil is the 'standard' soldier-y minion and the others are fudged from there?

The Legion Devil has a Soldier's AC and a Skirmisher's Attack Vs. AC, while the Servitor has a Skirmisher's AC and a Brute's Attack vs. AC.

I may have it, if someone would like to check my math... It seems that the minion is based on a monster archetype (Soldier, Brute, etc.) and has a -2 penalty to attack, and a base -1 penalty to 2 defenses other than AC.

I don't think that the level 1 minions mesh, but I'll check those out.

Looks like the Kobold works as a Controller.

 

[Vempyre]

Case in point, we all know that in 4E Greatswords get pwn'd and do a measley 1d10 damage. Now, look in your monster manuals on p. 201 and see that the Oni Mage (Large Creature) does 2d6, which is all fine and dandy except that PH 220 says that it should do 1d12. Fire Giant (Large Creature) on MM 123 says 1d12. WT? Plus, along the same vein, Redspawn Firebelcher, MM 88, has 2d6+1 instead of 3d6 +5 for his Fire Belch Power.

Check the DMG's errata for some answers (specifically the giant and oni's dmg) about this.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates

 

[Doc Eldritch]

Hmmm, I know exactly what the OP means, but I finally realized something that made it easier for me. Making monsters in 4e is like making them in 2e or old red box DnD. Make them do what you want. The guidelines are just there to help you out, but you decide what they do, and they do that. You pretty much have to completely drop the 3e mindset (this is both good and bad, I think). But monster creation IS a lot faster. For instance, for a thread on RPG.net, I made up an Iron Golem. Took me about 20-25 minutes and that was mostly because I had to double check some things and pull out my old 2e Monstrous Compendium to look at something. Just for reference, I'll include it below.

Iron Golem Level 19, Elite Soldier (4800 xp)


Initiative: +9 Senses: Perception +9, Darkvision
Hit Points: 368 Bloodied: 184
AC: 37 Fortitude: 41 Reflex: 25 Willpower: 26
Immune: Disease, Poison, Sleep, Fire; Vulnerable: Lightning 5
Saving Throw: +2
Speed: 6, can not shift
Action Points: 1

Slam (standard, at will)

Reach: 2, +26 vs AC, 3d6+8 damage, target is pushed 1 square and dazed (save ends)​

Double Slam (standard, at will)

The golem makes 2 Slam attacks​

Golem Rampage (standard, recharge )

The golem can move up to its Speed +2, and can move through enemy spaces, provoking opportunity attacks as normal. When it enters a creature's space (enemy or ally), it makes a Slam attack against that creature. The creature remains in its space and the golem must leave the space after it attacks. It must end its movement in an unoccupied square.​

Fiery Healing (immediate reaction, at will)

When the golem is hit by an attack dealing fire damage, it heals itself for an amount equal to the damage the attack would have dealt.​

Toxic Exhalation (standard, recharge , recharges when bloodied)

Close Blast: 4, +24 vs Fortitude, 3d10+7 poison damage and ongoing 10 poison damage (save ends)
​

Alignment: Unaligned Languages: -
Str: 26 (+17) Dex: 7 ( +7) Wis: 8 (+8)
Con: 24 (+16) Int: 3 (+5) Cha: 3 (+5)

But most of this was made up, using their guidelines, and what I thought an Iron Golem should have, based on old 2e stuff. Now, for a more unique creature, I would probably find some kind of beastie that was slightly similar in nature to my idea (ie, in terms of how it fights and approximate level), to give me some ideas on what is considered "fair" in 4e. As I get better at eyeballing things and how the PCs can deal with threats, I will probably not even need to do that.

 

[Talaeden_Denthiir]

Ok, more news on the greatsword... The new Dungeon article, 'Heathen', has one of the main NPC's (he's medium sized) wielding a greatsword for 1d12!

 

[Vempyre]

The dmg the MM monsters/NPC do are not related to the weapons they wield. He could have a dagger in his hands and still do the same dmg. Dmg is related to monster/NPC role, lvl, flavor, etc etc, not weapon in hand.

Judging from everything seen and the guideline rules : equipment for basic monster builds is totally irrelevant so don't even try to judge how much dmg a monster should do based on it's weapon (you will end up frustrated). It only becomes relevant when you start modifying them from their "base" and want to boost them with magic items and even then WotC do not recommend using that technique to modify monsters.

The above is if you follow the guidelines of course. A particular DM could choose to change dmg done based on the weapon being wielded, but they would be deviating from the guidelines.