• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Monster Manual and Players Hand Book Power Levels

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
As opposed to previous editions, there is a definite shift.
Yes, there is. I simply think it is a shift in the chosen goal (how the game is played and enjoyed), rather than a shift in ability to achieve the chosen goal.

We're talking about inept (or possibly rushed, incomplete, uneducated; take your pick) encounter design.
Aiming for a goal and hitting it is not inept - not even when part of your audience would prefer you aim for a different goal. Where you see a failure to design individual encounters that challenge and entertain players of high-level characters, I see a success at designing a collection of numerous encounters (the whole adventure section) that challenge and entertain players of high-level characters.

Or to phrase that differently: What's not working for you, seems to be working just fine for me, so the difference could be that what you are looking for isn't what the author was offering up.

Too many encounters in the latter half of Out of the Abyss read as if designed for a completely different game, one where a bunch of goblins or drow or minotaurs was a credible threat to a group of 15th or even 10th level adventurers.
Could you be specific about which encounters you are referring to? I'd like to review them to see what I think about their design relative to the sorts of characters I see at my table, especially because 5th edition D&D is, in my experience, a game where a bunch of goblins or drow or minotaurs are a credible threat to a group of 10th or 15th level characters.

The reasons for this doesn't really matter.
If the reason your expectations aren't being met is because you are expecting something different than what the designer is intending to make, rather than because the designer is trying to meet your expectations and is failing, I think that does really matter. I'm not sure a factor could matter more, actually.

Things simply didn't pan out the way people said so assuredly back in 2014.
They have at my table. (Note: I'm referring to things at my table panning out the way my group and I thought and hoped they would back in 2014, not to anyone other person's/group's thoughts whether expressed in this thread or elsewhere.)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

CapnZapp

Legend
This won’t change much, it’ll just shift the player meta to either a) going for pure damage and nothing else, since spells aren’t worth the investment, or b) speccing the group into being really spellcaster heavy, so they can apply all three levels in one turn and then go back to the old playstyle.
That's selling the idea far too short.

a) The spells should still feel worth the investment, since even if a single Banishment or Dominate Monster doesn't equate to pressing the insta-win button, they should still inconvenience the monster.

Put more succtinctly: If the players feel spells aren't worth the investment, that means the implementation was done poorly. It doesn't mean the idea was bad to begin with.

b) you say 1) that like it was bad or something? and 2) you very strangely say "then go back to their old playstyle" as if the wizards could suddenly transform back to kick-in-the-door fighters?

If the group concludes they need three spellcasters (so that they can get in three Banishment or whatever in quick succession) what's wrong with that? I would have thought, however, a more balanced approach would be to shield the wizard for three rounds. Which would accomplish everything we want out of a Solo fight.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "the old playstyle". Once they have defeated the Solo, there's nothing to go back to. The fight is won. Please, feel free to explain.



PS. Please don't read my suggested solution of the three strikes and youre out as a fully fleshed out complete rules proposal.

For instance, I am well aware a single spellcaster might not be capable of pushing out so many Imprisonments or Dominate Monsters that the math tells us are needed if you need three to "lock down" the monster.

So it's eminently possible the framework should encourage DMs to interpret many spells as stacking together.

For instance, my Fear example earlier, with Shaken --> Frightened --> Panicked.

This isn't going to be a very high-level example, but still: Let's say you successfully cast one Fear, one Phantasmal Killer and one Nightmare spell. They could all contribute to locking down the monster, with the final third spell determining the exact results.

The idea is that all of these spells are in roughly the same neighborhood, both thematically and power-wise.

The idea isn't to require you to memorize three (or six, assuming a 50% save rate) identical spells just to defeat the big bad.

The idea is to allow save or suck spells to have SOME impact, without giving them ALL the impact.

As a player you should feel casting save or suck spells is worthwhile. There must be some middle-ground here, and not "unless my spell insta-wins the combat I'm going to resort to damage only".

Especially if, as my plan is, you make sure Solo monsters have lots of hit points. :)

What we all want out of a Solo fight is a monster that might be killed off by hit points damage, but where spells are needed to make the monster suck just enough to not kill off the fighters.

Or, conversely, the fighters managing to keep the monster from killing off the spellcasters (or themselves) long enough for the spells to grind the monster down. Which should not be about a single roll of the die, but something that generally takes a while.

What we all want is the math of the game to usually lead to a nice satifying climactic fight.

Nothing wrong with the odd one spell and you're out fight, or the we-all-critted-so-the-monster-didn't-even-act-once.

But the game's math currently only achieve an average fight of more than a single round by heavy handwavium, and that's not a satisfying design.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Yes, there is. I simply think it is a shift in the chosen goal (how the game is played and enjoyed), rather than a shift in ability to achieve the chosen goal.

Aiming for a goal and hitting it is not inept - not even when part of your audience would prefer you aim for a different goal. Where you see a failure to design individual encounters that challenge and entertain players of high-level characters, I see a success at designing a collection of numerous encounters (the whole adventure section) that challenge and entertain players of high-level characters.

Or to phrase that differently: What's not working for you, seems to be working just fine for me, so the difference could be that what you are looking for isn't what the author was offering up.

Could you be specific about which encounters you are referring to? I'd like to review them to see what I think about their design relative to the sorts of characters I see at my table, especially because 5th edition D&D is, in my experience, a game where a bunch of goblins or drow or minotaurs are a credible threat to a group of 10th or 15th level characters.

If the reason your expectations aren't being met is because you are expecting something different than what the designer is intending to make, rather than because the designer is trying to meet your expectations and is failing, I think that does really matter. I'm not sure a factor could matter more, actually.

They have at my table. (Note: I'm referring to things at my table panning out the way my group and I thought and hoped they would back in 2014, not to anyone other person's/group's thoughts whether expressed in this thread or elsewhere.)
Sorry Aaron, but I percieve you to be one of the most diehard 5E defenders of the entire forum. We have had discussions previously, but I can't remember a single instance where you have shown yourself perceptive to criticism of the game we both love (put forth by me or anyone else) to the point where you actually acknowledge a weakness; and so we have never been able to get to the interesting part, the part where we discuss solutions and fixes.

So no - I won't have a discussion about what works for you, at your table. I simply don't see any scenario where I would find that worth my while. It's possible I'm making an unfair call, but them's the breaks.

Have a nice day
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Maybe we're misunderstanding each other, I'm saying that the framework of 5e makes it such that it is downright impossible for anyone, Wizards included, to make effective solos without using those methods. So the answer of "should or should this not be supported by 5th ed" is a moot one, because even if you believe it should be, it never will. The rules simply don't allow for it.

If I misunderstood you and you are instead asking for all of the above to be put into print to make more effective solos then I apologize for the confusion, but given your animosity to the 'cheated' saves of legendary resistance I figured this was not the case.
I think I know what this means, and if so, I thank you for pointing it out.

Yes, I am opposed to the current implementation of legendary saves.

No, that does not mean I am opposed to having solos that break the normal rules for character creation.

I make a difference between lazy cheating (which in essence is what legendary saves amount to) and an explicit rules framework that allows for a select few creatures (namely those which will be featured as solo opponents) to break the normal limits on hit points, action economy, and save resilience.

I don't consider it cheating if you take, say, an Ancient White Dragon and double its hit points. It's CR is 20 but as written, it's a three-round write-off for a high-level party.

And that's completely fine, if you view the dragon as merely an average opponent, as a run-of-the-mill monster just a few CRs above the party level.

But if you want a climactic final encounter with Perenth the White (a name I just plucked from http://fantasynamegenerators.com/dragon_names.php) and Perenth the White alone, the rules simply does not support that.

To make for an even half-interesting combat, Perenth needs at least 666 hit points, so he doesn't die like a complete wimp in round #2 or #3 tops.

---

The party might be on the hunt for the spirit of the Epic Polar Bear, or whatever, which just so happens has a white dragon body guard.

In that fight (party vs Epic Bear, his bodyguard the no-name ancient white dragon, and perhaps a dozen mooks) there is absolutely nothing wrong with the stats given by the MM.

But the rules fall apart when you want a solo fight.

I don't consider that cheating. I happen to want my D&D to support solo fights.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Sorry Aaron, but I percieve you to be one of the most diehard 5E defenders of the entire forum.
I don't "defend" 5e, as I do not perceive you expressing your opinions as "attacking" 5e. That you do perceive one or both of those to be true, even by proxy of you mistaking me as having seen your opinion expression as an attack against 5e, illustrates very clearly to me why you don't feel we can have discussion that you find worth your while.

We have had discussions previously, but I can't remember a single instance where you have shown yourself perceptive to criticism of the game we both love (put forth by me or anyone else) to the point where you actually acknowledge a weakness; and so we have never been able to get to the interesting part, the part where we discuss solutions and fixes.
That you can't remember those instances does not cause them not to exist, just as you failing to realize I was stating a criticism of the game we both love when I was doing so in those previous discussions did not make those criticism non-criticisms.

For a brief recap of some that I recall mentioning, but you have clearly missed:

  • Critical hits are not good for game play and should have been presented as optional like all the other rules that similarly make things harder for the players.
  • Monsters should either have at least a summary of each spell they can cast present in the monster manual, or shouldn't have spells at all without the DM choosing to add them.
  • PC races having different movement speeds doesn't enhance anyone's fun (as far as I've seen).
  • Cursed items were better in BECMI where removing the curse meant having a useful magical item instead of just being able to discard the bad juju garbage item.
There are more, but I figure those will either get the point across or no amount of pointing out my criticisms will help you believe something different than you already do.

So no - I won't have a discussion about what works for you, at your table.
The reason I bring up what works for me, at my table, is that I hope it will help you better identify exactly where the problem at your table is coming from - and in that identification allow you to treat the cause, rather than just the symptoms.

In this case, that means realizing your desired goal isn't the one the designers are trying to hit, and as a result ceasing to expect that they ever will, so you can start figuring out how you are going to hit your desired goal via other means.

Have a nice day
Thanks, and I hope yours is nice as well.
 

Sorry Aaron, but I percieve you to be one of the most diehard 5E defenders of the entire forum. We have had discussions previously, but I can't remember a single instance where you have shown yourself perceptive to criticism of the game we both love (put forth by me or anyone else) to the point where you actually acknowledge a weakness; and so we have never been able to get to the interesting part, the part where we discuss solutions and fixes.

So no - I won't have a discussion about what works for you, at your table. I simply don't see any scenario where I would find that worth my while. It's possible I'm making an unfair call, but them's the breaks.

Have a nice day
If you're not going to engage in actual discussion on this topic, why are you posting this on a discussion forum? If you just want to rant and not respond, may I suggest a blog? Because if you don't care what we have to say... frankly, why should we care what you have to say?

Also, again, is this an actual problem that has occurred at your table? I've seen a few people ask what adventures were too easy that you played or ran? Being too easy on the page is very different from being too easy during play.
Especially since you feel monsters you can kiting seems to be a real issue. But, in play, players don't know if they can kite or not. They don't know the "easy win" strategy for each monster. Is kiting a problem with your players that is actually affecting your game?
 

If the published adventures are too easy for your group, the GM could add more monsters?

I ran Curse of the Crimson Throne in Pathfinder ending at 14th level and the minmaxed PCs totally devastated the opposition after 8th level, there was no way to challenge them even though they were a couple levels below recommended level. My higher level 5e group are 14th-16th level currently and the game seems far better balanced. Powerful monster encounters generally work well. A fight with 12 vrock demons
did drag simply because they had so many hp to wade through; I had them retreat after 3 were killed and the battle was turning against them. As in 4e the best fights tend to have multiple monsters (but
not too many tough monsters, qv vrocks); 1 monster per 1-2 PCs tends to be ideal.

As far as I can see, high level 5e works much better than high level 3e/PF. The PCs probably do become tougher compared to monsters of similar CR, but it's not excessive and simply adding some more monsters can handle it, whereas in PF caster PCs can easily shut down fights. Arguably high level 5e is not as well balanced as high level 4e, certainly 4e works well IME through Paragon tier. But I still had to tweak published 4e adventures.
That's my experience with Pathfinder APs as well. They're built with a baseline difficulty, but anyone who makes it that high in level tends to be pretty tough and skilled. And PCs get super high powered at those levels. My party tore through the final dungeon in Rise of the Runeloreds in a single in-world day, never stopping to rest as no encounter challenged enough to consume enough resources to warrant a break. And they went into the final stretch of Skull & Shackles roughly two or three levels below where they should be and still stomped everything.
4e equally broke down at high level, doubly so if teamwork was involved. Listening to people talk about their epic tier games, the encounter building rules just got thrown out the window...

I don't have enough experience with high level 5e to say for sure. But from the looks of things I'd say it could be better: fewer buffs, less building for characters. The variability in power level between an optimized and optimized character is less pronounced when you can only optimize two or three decision points at level 15 rather than 10 to 30 decisions over those levels.
 

The_Gneech

Explorer
Something of a tangent, but I wonder how many games that feel like the PCs are overpowered are a result of DMs going nuts with stat bonuses and such up front to make characters more durable at 1st level, and then sorta forgetting they've done that. I'm joining a new Pathfinder game, and the stat generation method was "4d6, reroll 1's, drop the lowest." The array I got was 17, 15, 14, 12, 12, 11. Yikes. I quietly turned one of the 12s into a 9. I don't want to steamroll over the monsters. -.-

-The Gneech :cool:
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Something of a tangent, but I wonder how many games that feel like the PCs are overpowered are a result of DMs going nuts with stat bonuses and such up front to make characters more durable at 1st level, and then sorta forgetting they've done that. I'm joining a new Pathfinder game, and the stat generation method was "4d6, reroll 1's, drop the lowest." The array I got was 17, 15, 14, 12, 12, 11. Yikes. I quietly turned one of the 12s into a 9. I don't want to steamroll over the monsters. -.-

-The Gneech :cool:
I'll preface by saying that I am not accusing anyone on this forum of having done this.

I've seen loads of DMs over the years do things like that. They see something they don't like with thing A, they make a change to how that thing works, and they don't consider what effect that change has on things B through Z. Then when something with thing J is seriously not what they wanted, and it's directly the result of that change to how thing A works, they can't see the real cause of the problem and blame something else (usually the designers).

I've also seen DMs that make changes to the game, but the changes they choose don't actually fulfill their intended goal they made a change to try and reach in the first place - like my group's former DM who I once asked during 3.5 character creation "Why are you having us use the point buy costs out of the DMG, but giving us 45 points to spend?" (if I recall, the DMG listed 32 points for "super-powered" campaigns), and he told me the reason was so that he could run a "harder" campaign. He didn't get that using higher-CR monsters turned up the difficulty, and giving us super-high ability scores turned it right back down so that it didn't really feel any different than if we'd have just used the normal point buy values and faced normal-CR monsters.
 

mcintma

First Post
Snip
A Roper: our party's Warlock have 120" darkvision and Repelling Blasts. He simply concluded "I kill the roper, it can never reach me." Anticlimactic, but okay - a Roper's game depends on being able to ambush the party. Pity the rules for Passive Perception make that highly unlikely.

The Marilith demon: sure it has sharp blades. But it has no abilities commensurate with its description.

Juibilex, the Demon Lord: a sad sack of goop. If you run it by the book, expect the party to easily kite it, never taking a single point of damage. (Unless a party member fails the fear save and runs mindlessly straight at it)

TL;DR: Fifth Edition desperately needs an Expert add-on, adding back enough crunch to challenge the players and give the DM the tools needed to do just that.

I'm sympathetic to most of your argument. I wonder if we can come up with a basic list of powers that hi-CR entities must have to avoid the kiting/cakewalk 'let-down' (both for players and DM) type fights. The trick is knowing all the various powers a hi-level party can employ (I, for one, don't know all these offhand for all the classes).

Juiblex is a great example, with his Speed 30 (spider climb) and 60' ranged attack. Is it as simple as giving him Fly (as he had in 3.5?)

It would be nice to have a quick set of 'rules' to eyeball a hi-CR statblock and know 'this thing won't even get to touch the party'. At the moment the obvious one to me, from all the Tarrasque threads, is Fly and ranged capability - but I suspect there are more. And I don't think it's only spells: the 5e designers made sure casters were held back with Legendary Res and Magic Res - it's other high-level PC powers that may not have been considered (Paladin 200HP damage novas? Etc.)

Cheers
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top