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D&D 5E Monster Manual and Players Hand Book Power Levels

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Hello Scott - this is 2016 calling.

Given you're responding to someone who has not posted here since 2014, I don't think he's going to answer your call. Also, calling is kinda outdated. Maybe try texting him? :)

Anyway, I didn't get a response to this but would still like to discuss it. To repeat: Have you found play reports of more recent WOTC adventures (Strahd and Giants, for example) support your opinion on this that a majority of people playing with those adventures are also finding this problem with encounter design?
 
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I'm sympathetic to most of your argument. I wonder if we can come up with a basic list of powers that hi-CR entities must have to avoid the kiting/cakewalk 'let-down' (both for players and DM) type fights. The trick is knowing all the various powers a hi-level party can employ (I, for one, don't know all these offhand for all the classes).

Juiblex is a great example, with his Speed 30 (spider climb) and 60' ranged attack. Is it as simple as giving him Fly (as he had in 3.5?)

It would be nice to have a quick set of 'rules' to eyeball a hi-CR statblock and know 'this thing won't even get to touch the party'. At the moment the obvious one to me, from all the Tarrasque threads, is Fly and ranged capability - but I suspect there are more. And I don't think it's only spells: the 5e designers made sure casters were held back with Legendary Res and Magic Res - it's other high-level PC powers that may not have been considered (Paladin 200HP damage novas? Etc.)

Cheers

In every edition kiting was a possibility. It is your fault as a DM to use enemies in scenarios that are not meant for them. A roper belongs into a small enough room with other stalagmites so that his camouflage ability makes sense. If you have a character that just has abilities to detect such a monster before it surprises you, more power to him. Exploration is a part of that game.
 

mcintma

First Post
In every edition kiting was a possibility. It is your fault as a DM to use enemies in scenarios that are not meant for them. A roper belongs into a small enough room with other stalagmites so that his camouflage ability makes sense. If you have a character that just has abilities to detect such a monster before it surprises you, more power to him. Exploration is a part of that game.

In the specific case of the roper you are correct, I was thinking more along the lines of epic-level demon lords, who in (for ex.) 3.5e had many spell-likes and so on to prevent being trivialized. A demon-lord should be a terrifying thing, not something you can kite (i.e. dispatch without attrition) as Capn mentions.
 

In the specific case of the roper you are correct, I was thinking more along the lines of epic-level demon lords, who in (for ex.) 3.5e had many spell-likes and so on to prevent being trivialized. A demon-lord should be a terrifying thing, not something you can kite (i.e. dispatch without attrition) as Capn mentions.

I don't want to say there are no oversights. The Tarrasque missing regeneration is on issue that comes to my mind.
If you do not read the MM as player you won't know however how exactly you can kite a monster or if it is possible. I can even imagine how kiting a tarrasque may be the way to win. Lure it into a trap by angering it IF players find it out in game.
If I ever get the feeling players use DM knowledge I feel free to change as appropriate. I hate to change something but I also hate cheaters.

My players who know that they are vulnerable to fire still had problems because they don't know exactly how that regeneration works. It is totally different than it was in 3e. ;)
 

S'mon

Legend
What we all want is the math of the game to usually lead to a nice satifying climactic fight.

Had a great battle in my Runelords of the Shattered Star campaign today - Druid 8 PC & 4 level
7 PCs attacked the anti-Paladin Nualia (CR 6), 12 CR 2 Lamashtu cult fanatics (1 MM clerical caster, 2 crossbowmen
& 8 rogue type sneak attackers) & 4 CR 2 yeth hounds on a bridge, trying to rescue a captive.
Huge epic fight with the Cleric PC going down to a swam of cultists, the PC Wizard having to drop
fireball on her own comrades to turn the tide, and Nualia retreating only to be caught by the Monk, who she proceeded to obliterate in one round of smiting and spellcasting before going down herself to the
vengeful party & the Druid's summoned hippogriff spirits.

As far as solo monsters go, well they work well vs solo PCs... if you want an edition where solo monsters make a fun battle, there's 4e. 5e is better than 3e/PF, but clearly 1 monster vs 4/5 PC boss
fights were not a major design goal.
 
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S'mon

Legend
That's my experience with Pathfinder APs as well. They're built with a baseline difficulty, but anyone who makes it that high in level tends to be pretty tough and skilled. And PCs get super high powered at those levels. My party tore through the final dungeon in Rise of the Runeloreds in a single in-world day, never stopping to rest as no encounter challenged enough to consume enough resources to warrant a break. And they went into the final stretch of Skull & Shackles roughly two or three levels below where they should be and still stomped everything.

I would have the enemy play smart and once alerted to PC presence, combine several encounter groups into a single force that might be +8 over party EL. They'd still get slaughtered. I'd also boost the enemy, eg I doubled Queen Ileosa's regen to 50 pts/rnd - she still went down easily.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Anyway, I didn't get a response to this but would still like to discuss it. To repeat: Have you found play reports of more recent WOTC adventures (Strahd and Giants, for example) support your opinion on this that a majority of people playing with those adventures are also finding this problem with encounter design?
Since I haven't run those myself I really can't say.

I did hear some complaints about Strahd being taken down too quick, but I wouldn't place that in the same category. After all, the designers did give him an extra hp buffer (the heart thing).

Even if it turns out to be too little too late it tells me the designer seems aware of what a party of that level can do. Which is encouraging. (In fact, everything about CoS is encouraging)

But more importantly, it's "only" at level 10. Things hadn't really fallen apart already at level 10 in OotA. Sure, there was warning signs, such as how the designers evidently were worried the Drow ambush party would be too much for the heroes at the indicated level (8). They spend a lot of effort on advice on how to dial down the difficulty: things like one Drow suddenly attacking the others, the Drow chasing the party into full sunlight, that sort.

My players mowed them down at level 6. It only became interesting because I blatantly disregarded the module's advice on the Drow Priestess' pet Yochlol demon. The module instructs me to wait summoning the demon until the priestess has lost half her hit points. And the rules tell me the demon disappears when its summoner dies.

In this case, this would have meant that the demon never appeared, since they took Ilvara from nearly unharmed to dead in a single round. Instead, I had her summon the demon as soon as the magnitude of the battle became clear. And had it stay and fight by itself.

---

Still, that's within the bounds of believable softness. My complaint isn't that the drow hunting party was appropriate for level 6 instead of level 8.

What I am talking about is where the opposition is magnitudes less capable than the party.

When the writers talk about a single Nalfeshnee like this:

"Rather than immediately destroying any intruders, it toys with them for as long as possible. Slaughtertusk is happy to let a fight drag on, feasting on its enemies' pain before finally slaying them."

This is completely losing touch with reality. The party should be around level 12-14 at this time. (It's really hard to pin down any exact number, since the module doesn't work like that).

Even at level 11, my party would evaporate a single Nalfeshnee. The talk about "toying with them" and "dragging out the fight" might make sense if the module had thrown the demon at them at level 5 or something.

It's as if the OotA designers were using some kind of playtest ruleset where the heroes have half hit points or something...

---

And no, I don't expect either of the two new modules to be that egregious.

If only because neither module is what I'd call high level. But hopefully because the writers are better.

I hope and trust
 

S'mon

Legend
What I am talking about is where the opposition is magnitudes less capable than the party.

When the writers talk about a single Nalfeshnee like this:

"Rather than immediately destroying any intruders, it toys with them for as long as possible. Slaughtertusk is happy to let a fight drag on, feasting on its enemies' pain before finally slaying them."

This is completely losing touch with reality. The party should be around level 12-14 at this time. (It's really hard to pin down any exact number, since the module doesn't work like that).

Even at level 11, my party would evaporate a single Nalfeshnee.

Well, I expect my tabletop 5e group would too - in fact I was just looking at the Nalfeshneee a couple hours ago, wondering if it'd be an appropriate tough encounter for my tabletop party of 4 level 7s & and an 8. But it'd also be appropriate for my online 2-PC group of Barb-16 & Clr-14. The GM advice (geared towards not slaughtering a weak party) wasn't relevant to you, but I think a CR 14 Nalfeshnee looks reasonable for most level 11 groups.
And if not, I don't really see the harm - unlike 3e/PF I can make that Nalfeshnee threatening just by giving it some low-CR minions. They don't even add much to the XP award.
 

It's as if the OotA designers were using some kind of playtest ruleset where the heroes have half hit points or something...
Or, more likely, as if writing began in the fall of 2014 after the rules had been out for a month but the DMG was still pending and finished the spring of 2015 before people really knew the expected power levels of the game since no one had PCs above level 5...
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Or, more likely, as if writing began in the fall of 2014 after the rules had been out for a month but the DMG was still pending and finished the spring of 2015 before people really knew the expected power levels of the game since no one had PCs above level 5...
Sure. It's possible.

Still utterly unacceptable, though.

Right?
 

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