D&D 5E Monster Races and a quick sword thrust at the gate

ccs

41st lv DM
Putting it right out there...

This is :):):):):):):) behavior on your behalf. It just is, it is inescapable.
Let me break this down in a way you might possibly be able to comprehend.

As the DM, you control every aspect of the world. So don't go blaming what was written in this or that book or whatever. You, yourself, and only you in the entire universe, get to control what is even considered a "monster" in the world at your particular table. You decide how the NPCs react to others inhabiting their world based on physical traits.

Now, get this through your head. When you DM, you are there to make a good story WITH the players. They are not your opponents. They are not your enemies. They are not your rivals. They are your GUESTS. You are there to entertain them by putting forth a setting and setting up a challenge and curating and refereeing their experience of telling the story they collectively want to tell within it, with as few boundaries as possible. Your job at the table is to say "yes, and..."

Your players are not there to hear your story from you. You want to micromanage every aspect of the PCs actions and choices and possible experiences down to the single one you approve of? STOP PLAYING D&D!! You clearly just want to go write a book-- so go write a book and then you can hand it out to as many people as you like. Far more than the few players sitting at the table. The players did not come to your game to be strung out and tortured and abused by you for having had the gull to have dared to have played the game in any way that you don't personally approve of. You want to do that, go join a BDSM group-- but be warned that even they have safe words. When you find yourself at the table shouting "NO!! SCREW YOU!! AND I'M GOING TO TEAR YOU TO PIECES FOR BEING DIFFERENT!!" you've lost the script, you've **-*ed your whole game and you need to turn around and rethink your entire approach.

You want to know why a lot of players want to play something unusual. Because everyone here has no choice but to be a human every single day of their lives. Everyone they meet is a human. Every person they have ever seen or talked to or had any experience with has been a human. And now here before you sits a world with beings of all shapes and sizes, dozens upon dozens of new sorts of people that have sprung forth from people's imaginations over nearly 50 years of this game existing.... And then you are going to say that the only valid options are human, child-sized human, fat dumpy neckbeard human or gaunt super-model human? What a load of crap!! Maybe that's fine for your shrunken, miniscule imagination who decided that "Diety beyond Dieties, Master and Saviors, Lords Tolkien and Gygax only penned these choices alone to be heroes within the holy sacred volumes from which we cannot ever deviate" and thus decide that all the thinkin' that's to be done was done 60 years ago....

But you know what? Everyone playing the game right now has come up on Elder Scrolls, WarCraft and EverQuest and dozens of other games in which being those other shapes and sizes of people were perfectly valid options and one could be one and be accepted and be a hero, more and more so as these games and those that took after them went on-- few questions asked or limitations placed, the denizens of the world would not assault you without reason or warning for no other reason than existing. And quite frankly, it takes considerably more work to allow one to play one of those other choices in a fully rendered graphical game experience than to just jot down a different word by that "race" field on the character sheet form and having people react differently when it mattered. So why exactly should D&D be so god damn regressive and self-destructive as to artificially limit player options. And the really funny thing is, it strikes me that it is quite a lot less disruptive to the concept of the world to allow players to play the people who are already well-established as existing within the world and already are going to be regularly encountered, even if as primarily or exclusively antagonists, than all the various ass-pull "new hotness" creations that WotC has come up with since 3.5-- Warforged, Dragonborn, Tieflings, Bladelings, Shifters, etc... where basically the players are basically going to be one-of-a-kind in the entire world and well.. often enough, considerably more alien and monstrous than the "monsters" that already exist there.

Honestly, it is unlikely that any of the extra choices are ever going to be competitively popular with the simple mainstream Tolkien inventions (yet another reason why it is so unlikely that one's favorite is going to ever be playable in any format outside of pen and paper table top where they can only exist in the collective imagination of the group), but as they are easily implementable, then they should be implemented-- with the only reasonable limitation perhaps being that they should not expect access to powers and abilities so far reaching that the challenges set forth become trivial and the other players feel that they are no longer able to meaningfully contribute to the success of the goals laid out in the game and have merely become spectators along for the ride.


Oh, and simply because a creature is "evil" does not mean it cannot and will not be an ally to the supposedly "good" (though more often than not, neutral) mixed race but human dominated civilization at the centered of the game world. Nor does a race being "good" or "neutral" not mean that they won't be enemies.

A human capital could well have a working relationship with the savage orcs who live to the north and regularly provide them with food in exchange for furs and the added bonus that the orcs are going to fight off anything nastier than them that tries to make its way south. Or they could be long-lasting allies with a Hobgoblin fiefdom to the east and while they find their ways savage and don't agree with the way they keep slaves, both civilizations benefit from one another and aren't prepared to go to war over such cultural differences. And just as possibly, the main civilization could be heavily deforesting the forest or strip mining the mountains in order to get the resources they need to meet the needs of their people and expand their lands and wealth... but, as a result, have come into conflict with the elves (and dryads and treants) and dwarfs.

You really just need to use the slightest bit of common sense and imagination to make any situation work.

But, fundamentally, if you find that your players want to play something outside of the ultra conservative, limited scope that's been done to death and worn beyond thin over the last 60 years... then the last thing you should do is punish them for it. If they expectation is that they should be accepted by society to whatever extent, it is your job as the DM to say "yes" to that and think up the reason why they would be. Maybe the town is quite used to people having goblin or lizardfolk slaves or servants and so ultimately just doesn't object so long as they are with the other party members. Or, just simply, that the city has all sorts of shapes and sizes of people coming through here constantly and go ahead and fit those same races into the town as NPCs in the background. And while 90% of the goblins and lizardfolk you might meet out there in the wild will effectively be bandits and cannibals, over the literally tens of thousands of years that this world has existed-- inevitably however many tribes got conquered and absorbed into the general civilization.

If you are too stupid, too mean, or just generally too crap to be able to do this... don't be a DM. Just quit. Explain that you are so bigotted and small-minded that you cannot help but force your personal preferences on everyone else and are driven to assault anyone who has preferences or ideas different from your own. You have however many other people at the table who can do the job and absolutely certainly do the job better.

Let me guess. You wanted to play some crazy crap in your last game & the DM said "No."
 

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S

Sunseeker

Guest
I DM a few 5E games. Some of my players love to play monster races like goblin,kobold and Lizard man, but regardless of what I tell them expect to be able to just walk on in to any town and city.

This has lead to a few pc deaths. Also it seems to be the general thought that I'm home brewing this reaction and that the default in 5E is everyone just gets along together. That drow and goblins and orcs and whatever monster the pc's expect to play next week SHOULD be welcome to just walk on in anyplace nice and safe because people of D&D worlds NEVER judge anyone by race(even though the pc's do 100% of the time ...never once stopped to ask a goblin they encountered in the woods, nope it's just look xp!).

Is this a issue for other DM's? It frankly about to the point of me saying player handbook races only.

The only time it's been a problem is when I had players decide that their characters are just going to be evil now and start killing everyone who doesn't help or accept them. Because really a level 5 or higher fighter can waste small-town guards pretty easy...which is one reason I just don't allow evil characters, and that was really with only one player.

It's never been a problem for me because I explain it up front Session Zero and my players are mature enough to handle it, or skilled enough to get around it. So never really had any butthurt about it.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
This one is a slam dunk.

If the Dm has set the campaign so that the monstrous races are regarded with hostility, and the players were warned about that....well that's completely on them.

Pretty much. Good DMs will communicate with their players about what to expect in their game world. If it's a default thing, like koblods being bad guys, then I wouldn't expect the DM to have to explicitly point that out. Only things in which may cause confusion or run counter to the default expected style of play. Good players will also communicate with the DM if they want to play an optional whatever. If I want to play a minotaur PC, I will let my DM know ahead of time and hash out any issues there.

Any player has the right to choose not to play in a DM's gameworld. However, if you do, then there's a social contract there where you're agreeing to play in that DM's gameworld and will adhere to those things that may come up. If you don't like it, you can always find another DM, or DM yourself in your game and set up the gameworld however you want it.

Everyone there is there to have fun. But the DM puts in a lot more prep time and work into making the game work than the players do, therefore, there needs to be an understanding that it's his or her game.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
I DM a few 5E games. Some of my players love to play monster races like goblin,kobold and Lizard man, but regardless of what I tell them expect to be able to just walk on in to any town and city.

This has lead to a few pc deaths. Also it seems to be the general thought that I'm home brewing this reaction and that the default in 5E is everyone just gets along together. That drow and goblins and orcs and whatever monster the pc's expect to play next week SHOULD be welcome to just walk on in anyplace nice and safe because people of D&D worlds NEVER judge anyone by race(even though the pc's do 100% of the time ...never once stopped to ask a goblin they encountered in the woods, nope it's just look xp!).

Is this a issue for other DM's? It frankly about to the point of me saying player handbook races only.

I've got no love for monster race characters. So by all means, carry on having the NPCs react appropriately to monsters showing up at the gates.

My own games run much the same. There's a list of races you can choose freely from, there's a list that the answer is NO (it's non-negotiable), and anything else = we'll discuss it (just don't be surprised if the answer ends up as no.).
This is because as the DM I'm just not interested in DMing for "monster" PCs.

Now Drow & Duergar? They exist. They're a known quantity in my world. They are well known & feared for their evil ways. The NPCs are NOT interested in waiting long enough to discover that you really are a "good Drow". And thanks to your kin they'll just assume you're lying about that anyways. So they'll flee/call for help/shoot 1st.... The rest of the party will be guilty by association. And it'll escalate.
I'll let you play one, but you'll know up front that you ARE signing yourself & the rest of the party up for a lot of strife. If that's OK with you & the other players, then roll one up....
This & just saying "No" has worked quite well in keeping my games monster-PC free. :)
 

GameOgre

Adventurer
I could see a setting with Beholder Bartenders and Troll Guards. Vampire Tax collectors(everyone hates them anyway) and goblin mail persons. Ogres ran a lot of tow trucks(pick the cars up and set them on the truck bed) and orcs demanded equal rights(This isn't the 44,000 still! It's 98,767 for Lanthenders sake!).

Actually thinking about it such a setting would be a blast for a short run! * wanders off thinking this idea through
 

I DM a few 5E games. Some of my players love to play monster races like goblin,kobold and Lizard man, but regardless of what I tell them expect to be able to just walk on in to any town and city.

This has lead to a few pc deaths. Also it seems to be the general thought that I'm home brewing this reaction and that the default in 5E is everyone just gets along together. That drow and goblins and orcs and whatever monster the pc's expect to play next week SHOULD be welcome to just walk on in anyplace nice and safe because people of D&D worlds NEVER judge anyone by race(even though the pc's do 100% of the time ...never once stopped to ask a goblin they encountered in the woods, nope it's just look xp!).

Is this a issue for other DM's? It frankly about to the point of me saying player handbook races only.

Its really depends on the setting that you run. I run Eberron, in which most of those races are regarded with a little suspicion in the more provincial areas, but as long as they abide by the laws and pay their taxes they're considered citizens. Lizardmen would be more unusual, and would probably be questioned, but as long as they behaved, there would not be an issue.

Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms (the default 5e setting) are a little less accepting. A goblin, orc, or drow presenting itself to the city gates and requesting to be let in may well be regarded with suspicion. If they can't give good reasons, or no one else vouches for them, then in areas that have had trouble with that race, the character might be barred from entry or provided an escort.

City gatesmen taking it upon themselves to murder someone asking peacefully for entry into the city? That sounds like something specific to your own setting. Its unusual enough that you should make it known that your setting differs from the norm in regards like that.
Its one thing to be interested to play a character of an unusual race against type and to see if they can rise above prejudice of others. Its another to create a character with that concept and then find that the race has a 'kill on sight' label in the area that you have set the adventure.
 

GameOgre

Adventurer
Its really depends on the setting that you run. I run Eberron, in which most of those races are regarded with a little suspicion in the more provincial areas, but as long as they abide by the laws and pay their taxes they're considered citizens. Lizardmen would be more unusual, and would probably be questioned, but as long as they behaved, there would not be an issue.

Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms (the default 5e setting) are a little less accepting. A goblin, orc, or drow presenting itself to the city gates and requesting to be let in may well be regarded with suspicion. If they can't give good reasons, or no one else vouches for them, then in areas that have had trouble with that race, the character might be barred from entry or provided an escort.

City gatesmen taking it upon themselves to murder someone asking peacefully for entry into the city? That sounds like something specific to your own setting. Its unusual enough that you should make it known that your setting differs from the norm in regards like that.
Its one thing to be interested to play a character of an unusual race against type and to see if they can rise above prejudice of others. Its another to create a character with that concept and then find that the race has a 'kill on sight' label in the area that you have set the adventure.

You do realize that those cities in 2nd edition had in the guides to those cities open bounties on humanoid races right? you turned in sets of ears for gold. It was in there version of The Guide to the sword coast setting books. Greyhawk for even MORE up front about it.

but regardless.....I did tell the players about my view on monster races and that they could overcome such fear and hatred but that it would be hard work and not fair and my thoughts were they should just play one of the acceptable races.

I think I'm just going to rule player handbook races only from now on. Save myself the added hassle. Only one of them accepted the challenge of playing a monster race and lived up tot he challenge and he was a druid so he just shapeshifted into dog/cat or hawk form for a long time when going into towns until he had saved the entire city a number of times and could reveal himself as what he was. After that he was greatly accepted and eventually even distant places heard legends and stories about him.
 

What I do as a DM, since I've sometimes had games where virtually everyone wants to play a monstrous race, is say during our Session Zero that most settlements would view a full group of more monstrous humanoids with extreme suspicion, but would be more lenient if they are part of a group with the more common humanoids. My players get the hint and work things out among themselves to get a more reasonable (and less conflict-inducing) proportion of weird vs normal races...

Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app
 

GameOgre

Adventurer
Also isn't there a orc kingdom? I mean couldn't you run a hidden empires kind of setting in Faerun? Maybe like the orcs are more open and have cities with all kinds of monster races and a inverted map of faerun where the hidden empty places on the normal map are filled in with humanoid towns and cities.
 

The Human Target

Adventurer
If you're so concerned with realism, you should have all but one race be extinct.

Because in reality, elves and dwarves and humans and halflings would all have gotten into a giant race war and exterminated each other.

Of course, having more than one race exist is pretty ludicrous so if you're so concerned with realism you should just have a single intelligent race world.

Of course, having a world of magic and monsters that still somehow looks like a Golden Age of movies medieval period piece is totally insane so you should probably drop the whole thing and play Boggle.
 

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