Monster tactics 101?

[Havrik Stoneskimmer]

Can anyone give me some basic DM monster tactical tips? I feel like I'm not particularly challenging my party (although they don't seem to be too bored or otherwise unhappy). In tonight's game of three encounters I managed to bloody a PC maybe three times total.

The 2nd level knight has an armor class of 24, and in one encounter my monster had to roll an minimum of 18 in order to hit him. But if he tries to disengage he gets whacked. Meanwhile, the thief has an attack bonus of +11 even without combat advantage, which he gets 80% of the time due to tactical trick, flanking, or the mage's spells.

I guess I'm whittling their healing surges away as they heal after each encounter, but I don't feel like I'm ever really pushing them anywhere near the brink during the combats. These are Level+0 or +1 encounters. Maybe I need to bump up the encounter level? Use higher-level monsters which will have a better shot to hit?

One tactic I guess I will start trying is to bog down the knight with minions and let the tougher monsters attack the thief and mage. But that only lasts a couple rounds until he cleaves his way through the minions.

Suggestions on building or running more challenging/dangerous encounters? They haven't been complaining, but I just feel that they are steamrolling the encounters. In one, they killed the caster monster before he got more than one spell off, so they didn't even get to see the cool things he does. I know the destiny of my monsters is to die, but I'd just like to put a bit of fear into the PCs before they do!

 

[kaomera]

I've had similar problems. I found that (for me) the number one thing was not to sweat encounters looking "too hard" if they where a reasonable level, and N or N+1 is generally reasonable. Try using monsters mainly from MM3 or better yet the Monster Vault, not only is their damage generally higher, many MM1 & MM2 monsters seem to have wonky damage or defense values. And the newer monsters seem generally better designed. Also try adding interesting terrain / hazards / traps, especially stuff that could mess the PCs up - IME they figure it our pretty quickly and after an initial scare start using it to their advantage...

I really don't like specifically aiming stuff at the PCs' weak points, but I think you kind of have to a little bit, at least sometimes. Also, be fairly ruthless about capitalizing on any mistakes the players make. If one PC gets out in front early on, pile on that guy with everything you've got! Chances are you can bloody him, maybe even drop him, but if they have any healing available he should be back on his feet in short order. Since most monsters don't really have any healing to speak of they just lose at attrition, losing actions every time one of them drops.

Just (IMO) if you're a bit harsh on them in an encounter, it's probably best to not be too hard on them about resting thereafter. If they think they should take an extended rest before pressing on, it just means that they respect the dangers of the dungeon! (Usually - if they're resting because one PC actually used a daily, then maybe not so much.)

 

[chitzk0i]

Well, the thief has the maximum attack bonus he can get at this level, which is important for a thief. They don't have daily or encounter powers for big bursts of damage, it's good for them to ensure they deliver damage consistently. I'm not sure about the knight's AC, though. 8 for plate, 2 for shield, 1 for level and 1 for enhancement comes out to 22, which is still hard to hit, but it's a little better.

Remember that monsters have a fair amount of hit points, so they can risk a couple hits from the knight. If throw a few good, solid hits toward the fighter hand he shrugs them off completely, they ought to go harass someone else, like that rogue removing that guy's kidneys.

 

[TornadoCreator]

Ok, this is simply a matter of scaring your players. Make them feel worries about each encounter for different reasons, such as giving them lurkers who can phase through walls and watch as they wonder who's going to get rushed next... or giving them a massive solo with a couple of minions and a few low level lackies (never put a solo alone, the monster WILL die quickly as you have competent players). Include ongoing damage, poisons and illness.

The most thrilling thing that ever happened to my character was when I tore a monster appart with my Hunger of Hadar right next to me... I was playing the Warlock, and my role was scout and skill monkey. (We already had the 4 roles covered so I made a skill centric character who was less effective in combat. He was fun to play). The reason it was thrilling though was after I killed the monster I had to make saving throws every extended rest as the DM described a black ooze across my skin, stranging my lungs from the inside... every time I failed and I lost another healing surge. I needed to make Endurance and Athletics checks regularly until eventually, with only one healing surge left we got to the town and the Cleric was able to get the materials needed to perform a ritual for me to get rid of the illness.

It was outside of combat for the most part, but it was thrilling all the way because the Character felt truly in danger.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I think, "don't worry, just throw everything you've got at them" can be good advice if you want to challenge them, but be careful with it, too.

Last session I ran a simple level 1 encounter for my group. Six players, 600xp worth of monsters. It was actually a reskinned and tweaked version of one of the encounters from the Dark Sun Campaign Guide. I was a little worried because some of the monsters had encounter attacks that did 4d6+4 damage, but I thought, "meh, I'll bloody someone with this, or drop them at worst, but nobody will die. It's an at-level encounter, and only level 1. I'm sure those damage dice aren't as bad as they look."

Oh boy, was I wrong about that.

The baddies ambushed the party, and only the Sentinel had a high enough perception not to be surprised. The Hunter was isolated at the start of battle and not within LoS of the rest of the group. She got bloodied well into the single-digit hp by the ranged attacker's first and second volleys. The paladin was the other target of the first couple volleys, also taken down to 8 hp by the surprise round and first initiative pass. Then, she got attacked by one of those 4d6-plus-whatever encounter powers. Crit.

The poor girl was chunky salsa before she even got to act (and before the Sentinel Druid could come to her aid). I actually kind of felt bad for her player. He took it well enough though.

During the battle, I also bloodied the Slayer, and took a good chunk out of the Sorcerer. The Warden didn't get hit at all (polearms help with that). It was far from a TPK, but now I'm a little gunshy. I worry because they have a big encounter coming up soon, and after that, I'm worried I will end up with a TPK.

I keep telling myself, "it's only zombies and a couple cultists."

Sure. Only zombies. We'll see.

 

[Mummolus]

Last session I ran a simple level 1 encounter for my group. Six players, 600xp worth of monsters. It was actually a reskinned and tweaked version of one of the encounters from the Dark Sun Campaign Guide. I was a little worried because some of the monsters had encounter attacks that did 4d6+4 damage, but I thought, "meh, I'll bloody someone with this, or drop them at worst, but nobody will die. It's an at-level encounter, and only level 1. I'm sure those damage dice aren't as bad as they look."

Oh boy, was I wrong about that.

Was that the one with the silt runners? It's been pretty widely criticized for being so dangerous, but it fits perfectly into Dark Sun. Problem is it doesn't fit anywhere else - the whole point of Dark Sun is that everything can and will kill you.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Was that the one with the silt runners? It's been pretty widely criticized for being so dangerous, but it fits perfectly into Dark Sun. Problem is it doesn't fit anywhere else - the whole point of Dark Sun is that everything can and will kill you.

That's EXACTLY the one.

I had no idea of the criticism. Yikes. I feel extra bad now.

I figured it fit, because I am running a gritty viking-style campaign arc, and i wanted death and whatnot to be a real possibility, but I didn't want to savage them like that. Duly noted. That's one Valkyrie that won't be choosing any more slain (actually I have something cool worked out for her for later on, so her player won't feel so bad when he finds out).

I didn't think using DS stuff would be so bad, because I am using Themes, and I have even done a fun little Runic thing to further power up the characters (one rune determines a +2 bonus to a stat, another grants a free skill, and a third gives a Gift of the Norns [a class feature level power, or paragon feat equivalent, etc]), so power level is not lacking, but apparently hit points are.

 

[Havrik Stoneskimmer]

I'm not sure about the knight's AC, though. 8 for plate, 2 for shield, 1 for level and 1 for enhancement comes out to 22, which is still hard to hit, but it's a little better.

Remember that monsters have a fair amount of hit points, so they can risk a couple hits from the knight. If throw a few good, solid hits toward the fighter hand he shrugs them off completely, they ought to go harass someone else, like that rogue removing that guy's kidneys.

He has a 24 AC because I just gave him plate +2, which might have been a little dumb on my part if I'm annoyed by not being able to hit him. But I figured I'd give him some toys to help him do his job even better.

You're right, though; I should be more bold about having my monsters let the knight take a swipe at them while they go eviscerate the thief (who is actually pretty fragile when he does become a target) instead of sitting there swatting at the knight ineffectively.

 

[Aegeri]

That's EXACTLY the one.

I had no idea of the criticism. Yikes. I feel extra bad now.

It's one of the worst encounters written in 4E actually, with only the original Irontooth encounter from HS1 being anywhere near as bad. Silt Runners are just way above the ridiculous level for the level they are. At level 1 they do 4d6+4 damage AND inflict vulnerable 5 all with their attack. Worse, they can do this once and twice an encounter, deal 4d6+4 damage! They have normal accuracy as well.

This makes them one of the most obscenely dangerous monsters in 4E, especially because they are level 1. Hell, you can take them, scale them to level 5 (HP, defenses and such), not change the damage and they are still scary as hell. That is how ridiculous they are. They even scale into paragon tier, especially with updated damage and their ability to inflict vulnerable all.

For the record, a level 1 brute using a limited use power - at best - should inflict ~12 points of damage average. This is:

1d8+4 (Normal damage expression) +2 (+25% damage for being a brute) +2 (+25% extra damage for a limited use power) = 12.5 average damage.

The Silt Runner inflicts 18 points of damage on average when it hits.

14 (dice) + 4 (static mod) = 18. So roughly another half again!

It will probably be more due to the +5 damage from vulnerable all. Especially as other allies can trigger that when they hit multiple times. Not to mention their crits are insanely brutal. Now throw them onto an encounter where they keep coming and there are quite a few of them, it's no wonder most tables got trivially TPKed. If you DO use these things, you really have to use one and at most 2. PCs need to quickly identify them and kill them ASAP. Because if one of them gets a hold of a squishy character the result is horrible doom very quickly.

Edit: To the OP. Don't be afraid to just take an OA from the knight to attack another PC. This gives him an extra attack, but once out of the aura the creature is free to do whatever it wants. Unless the monster is unintelligent, like a zombie you should consider this as a distinct option. No defender works very well without his allies. Taking risks with monsters is key to making exciting encounters, especially if you get to paragon and epic. You shouldn't be afraid to provoke AoOs, or mark effects and similar if you think the result will be more exciting. The fighter who needs to desperately hit on his mark enforcement attack, in order to keep the nearly unconscious leader upright is an example of when you should ignore a mark (despite the consequences). This is also much more exciting for everyone involved than flaying at said fighter ineffectively. The fighter feels important if he hits and downs the monster, the leader has a horrible feeling while waiting for the result and should the fighter miss, there is then the question of if the creature capitalizes on its luck. These sorts of decisions make a combat feel more dynamic and exciting.

Edit2: I actually have an example from my own games I describe on the forum here. In this case I had a chronically wounded phase spider and used a power that would slay it at the end of its attacks. The battlemind was targeted first, followed by the rogue and then the unconscious (and nearly dead) wizard. This was a very exciting moment in that session and the result was incredible thematic (and dramatic). Each of the players involved was hanging on every dice roll!

 

[Mengu]

Level 2 knight at 24 AC seems off. And make sure you are using MM3 damage expressions.

Most difficult thing as DM, is to not forget stuff that monsters do. I end up helping out a lot of DM's as player, so they don't forget monster auras at the beginning of a PC's turn, they don't forget to recharge abilities, they don't forget immediate actions when monsters are bloodied, or killed, etc.

Also a bit of rules mastery to keep players in line is somewhat required, or the players (especially less experienced ones) will get away with murder, taking immediate actions during their turns, making opportunity attacks while dazed, forget conditions on them like weakened and give you full damage, etc.

Once those issues are out of the way, you should be able to start threatening them reasonably well. Keep in mind combat at low levels is somewhat swingy. If monsters get a surprise round and initiative on PC's, the PC's can get hosed pretty bad, riddled with conditions, bloodied and near death, and trying to dig themselves out of a hole the entire encounter.

Monster tactics 101, focused fire. Ignore the defender if you must. Monsters have a healthy reservoir of hit points, they can take the defender punishment. And throw everything you have onto one PC, preferably the healer if you can get to them, but any squishy opportune target will do. If you take down the thief, they are suddenly down 4 or so healing surges at the end of the encounter, likely going into the next encounter with 2 surges. Their rest of the day will be quite challenging, trying to stay safe. They might still steamroll through some encounters, but that's great. They have to. Otherwise, they'll quickly run out of surges and have to rest.

One other great way to challenge PC's is time pressure. Have to finish up an encounter in 5 rounds, or the boat is sinking, or the bomb will go off, or whatever other pressure element. Next way is challenging their action economy. Use monsters that grab in the middle of difficult terrain. Make them climb to get to an artillery enemy on a ledge playing peek-a-boo. Have enemies close doors on them, and hold those doors while their artillery uses arrow slits to harass them. Yet another way to challenge them is tight quarters and blasts. Healing suddenly becomes scarce in that environment, and when everyone is suffering conditions, it's harder to hand out saves.

There are some subtler DM monster tactics too. I'll often use bait to gather PC's around a creature, then drop bursts on them. I'll have the monster with 3 hit points left, go engage the massive damage dealing rogue, and send minions at the rogue. I'll send a soldier or lurker after the mage, and grab them. I'll blind, daze, immobilize defenders.

Basically when you want to challenge them as DM, you use their vices, and exploit them. It's important however not to overdo this. Balance in challenges is key to keeping them on their toes. Make them look for mobility powers on those occasions where they find themselves challenged getting to the enemy. Make them look for the emergency heal option when their leader goes down.

A well coordinated party is a party with a wide variety of options and solutions for every problem. They will eventually adapt to the challenges you are providing them, but when they get used to your curveballs, you throw a fastball at them.

And last but not least, as mentioned don't be afraid to add an extra standard creature, if they are having too easy of a time. You can even do this on the fly. They attack a room full of orcs, and their alpha strike is so strong (or lucky with some crits), you don't think the encounter is going to mean much, have a beefy orc walk out of the john, asking what's going on? Then reach back, rip off the toilet seat and start attacking with it.