D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

[Klaus]

Daemons and Demodands don't give me any reason not to use them in place of Devils or Demons.

I want to know what place they can have in a campaign, what do they bring that is unique to them. And preferrably, in the Material Plane, where the important things happen).

 

[Shemeska]

And preferrably, in the Material Plane, where the important things happen).

That's up for debate, and highly dependent on the type of campaign you're running. If you're running a low level only game, clearly gargantuan dragons are of little use to you. But that doesn't mean the game shouldn't keep them. Same thing with a lot of outsiders who may or may not have even a remote interest in the prime material plane. The 'loths

That said, I could see giving the 'loths a more defined angle when it comes to the prime material since they've always been largely consumed with outer planar politics and long-scale manipulation of events there. For instance, we know the 'loths abhor gods virtually above anything else. If you posit that the gods created mortals (in and of itself also very up for debate), the 'loths might likewise despise mortals as well in some capacity (though not on the scale of Pathfinder's daemons). And since the 'loths don't rely on mortal souls to create more of themselves like devils require and demons do as well to a slightly lesser extent, the 'loths don't care if they muck with affairs on the prime material plane, screwing both with its function as a soul factory for the other fiends, celestials, and the gods. Let the 'loths tinker with the affairs of gods and men, not just pull the puppet strings of the other fiends?

 

[Orius]

And finally, Anthraxus was renamed Phraxus in late 3e FR and 4e because of the anthrax scare in the nws? Really? Seriously? That's hands down one of the lamest alterations of D&D lore ever. Words cannot describe how absolutely appalling that is. Please tell me that was a legal decision rather than a design team thing.

Yeah, that's about as lame as dumping devils and demons in the first place because of the Satanic panic.

I mean, this is the game that gave us pistol-packing anthropomorphic hippopotami... IN SPACE.

YMMV, of course. I like the giff myself.

You mean the yugoloths weren't created and work for Tharizdun?* That's why they are so reveiled.

...

* (specifically my campaign and since 1st edition, no canon here)

I've done something similar myself in my background cosmology. Tharizdun originally greated the baerns back in the days of the Primordials as a way of dicking over everything the other Primordials were doing. But the baerns serve no one but themselves.

Interesting article. I prefer the name yugoloth to daemon myself. The words demon and daemon are pronounced the same, so it doesn't do anything to help distinguish the two groups. Most of the 'loths aren't particularly memorable though, but I'd at least like to see them stick with the nycaloths, arcanaloths, and ultraloths, and mezzoloths if they need a fodder 'loth. They don't necessarily need to be in 5e's core though.

Gehreleths are a meh for the most part, even in PS they weren't very relevant, except for the occasional shator that like to snark about the 'loths. The most interesting thing about them is how they can liquify themselves and occasionally hang out in bottles, put a gehreleth bottle in a treasure horde and let the players think it's a potion so hilarity can ensue. Anyway, 5e doesn't need to bother with them in core.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I thought the mezzoloth, nycaloth and gehreleths matched my sense of the iconic D&D creatures. I am in favor of keeping them as Yugoloth so they remain fiends dinstinct from demons and devils. I prefer other loths being called anthraxus and gehreleth. Finally, i think mezzoloth and nycaloth should have four arms.

 

[Arytiss]

The problem I find with most of these articles, is that while they give us descriptions of the monsters, they tell us very little about them. As Shemeska has said, there's a vast body of lore surrounding the Yugoloths and Gereleths that seldom appears because of this tendency to simply show us numbers.

I'm not saying that we need exact details about every little thing, but for creatures like this, which have been burdened for so long with the rather bland "inter-planar mercenaries" we need to see some proper development of motivation. Who are the Yugoloths?

 

[Klaus]

That's up for debate, and highly dependent on the type of campaign you're running. If you're running a low level only game, clearly gargantuan dragons are of little use to you. But that doesn't mean the game shouldn't keep them. Same thing with a lot of outsiders who may or may not have even a remote interest in the prime material plane. The 'loths

That said, I could see giving the 'loths a more defined angle when it comes to the prime material since they've always been largely consumed with outer planar politics and long-scale manipulation of events there. For instance, we know the 'loths abhor gods virtually above anything else. If you posit that the gods created mortals (in and of itself also very up for debate), the 'loths might likewise despise mortals as well in some capacity (though not on the scale of Pathfinder's daemons). And since the 'loths don't rely on mortal souls to create more of themselves like devils require and demons do as well to a slightly lesser extent, the 'loths don't care if they muck with affairs on the prime material plane, screwing both with its function as a soul factory for the other fiends, celestials, and the gods. Let the 'loths tinker with the affairs of gods and men, not just pull the puppet strings of the other fiends?

Re: "important things happen in the Material Plane": we can all agree that the vast majority of campaigns happen in a Material Plane, and the most important events of those campaigns are the actions of the PCs. So what I meant is "why do I use daemons to meddle in PC affairs, when I already have demons and devils for that?"

What you said about loths hating gods -- and by consequence mortals -- is interesting. But isn't that the most common motivation of devils (and sometimes demons)? For instance, arcanaloths keep pacts in their books. Isn't pact-making the devils' schtick? Why use an arcanaloth instead of, say, a malebranche? From a mortal's perspective, what makes them different?

 

[avin]

Re: "important things happen in the Material Plane": we can all agree that the vast majority of campaigns happen in a Material Plane, and the most important events of those campaigns are the actions of the PCs. So what I meant is "why do I use daemons to meddle in PC affairs, when I already have demons and devils for that?"

I never used a devil or demon in any low level Material Plane campaign I've run and I think most people don't. Why keep them?

Because there's some people who like them and use them. Otherwise we could get rid of Bullywugs and tons of other creatures and so remove Manual of the Planes from existance.

I don't think it's a good idea remove options from a game which prime material is imagination... every edition should bring more and more creatures.

Thos who want to stick with elves and dwarves and orcs will be fine. Those who want to run planar games will be satisfied.

 

[avin]

"From a mortal's perspective, what makes them different?"

From a mortal perspective what's the difference between a village ravaged by orcs or gnolls or hobgoblins? It's up to the DM to decide.

For common folk they're all the same, evil savages. Let's remove all of them just because common folk doesn't know the difference, or just don't care to understand?

 

[Klaus]

"From a mortal's perspective, what makes them different?"

From a mortal perspective what's the difference between a village ravaged by orcs or gnolls or hobgoblins? It's up to the DM to decide.

For common folk they're all the same, evil savages. Let's remove all of them just because common folk doesn't know the difference, or just don't care to understand?

Not really helpful, avin. I'm asking for those who love Yugoloths to showcase what is great and unique about them. If there isn't anything really unique about them, then we should try and give them a better identity.

 

[Dausuul]

Re: "important things happen in the Material Plane": we can all agree that the vast majority of campaigns happen in a Material Plane, and the most important events of those campaigns are the actions of the PCs. So what I meant is "why do I use daemons to meddle in PC affairs, when I already have demons and devils for that?"

What you said about loths hating gods -- and by consequence mortals -- is interesting. But isn't that the most common motivation of devils (and sometimes demons)? For instance, arcanaloths keep pacts in their books. Isn't pact-making the devils' schtick? Why use an arcanaloth instead of, say, a malebranche? From a mortal's perspective, what makes them different?

Yeah, I don't really see a strong role for daemons/'loths as a major extraplanar threat. Devils cover the "elaborate schemes and dark pacts" angle, and demons cover the "destroyers of worlds" angle. There isn't much else you want an extraplanar villain for. I suppose daemons/'loths could be a force of despair, seeking to drain all life and light from existence, but it doesn't really fit their established lore.

That's why I'd be inclined to break them up into individual fiend types, and let each one find its own niche. Likely roles would be lurking monsters in areas where the power of evil is strong; guardians of forbidden secrets and places of dark power; non-hostile brokers* who deal in black magic or information about the lower planes; or "auxiliaries," monsters you can use to flesh out both demon and devil encounters.

As for demodands, their current shtick is basically, "If you ever get stuck in Tartarus/Carceri, you meet these guys." It's kind of a weak shtick, but it's what they've got. It would be a better shtick if Tartarus itself were used more often. I'd like to see demodands built up as both jailors and inmates of the most terrible prisons in all of reality. When you have something that's so powerful you can't kill it and so evil that even Asmodeus and Demogorgon want it safely locked away, you shove it in Tartarus or the equivalent, and demodands weave spells around it and nosh on its life force, keeping it weak and unable to break free.

[SIZE=-2]*This is arguably stepping on the devils' toes a bit, but the daemonic merchant isn't interested in roping you into a long-term contract or using you in some elaborate scheme. It's happy to make a deal, take your payment, and send you on your way.[/SIZE]