Monsters using treasure

[victorysaber]

In many posts, or at least what I've seen, most people generally have their monster use the treasure that they come with as rewards. As in if a monster has a +1 longsword, a potion of haste, and a potion of bull's strength as part of its treasure/reward, then it will use those items in combat, and it's up to the PCs to take down the monster before it uses up their reward.

My question is, doesn't this bring up the monster's CR if it uses the treasure/reward it comes with?

As it stands, a monster's CR is different from its ECL, because (as far as I have figured out), when monsters are used as PCs, they come equipped with X amount of treasure, which rationalises the split between ECL and CR. Therefore, monsters with or who use treasure are necessarily of a higher CR.

So is the treasure/reward that comes with monsters meant to be used, or would doing so raise the monster's CR?

 

[Gansk]

Estimating CR is an art, not a science. There are cases that could be made either way with a monster using treasure.

In general, it is easier to assume that a magic item or two will not affect a monster's CR in any significant fashion. If you play this way over a long period of time, the results should average out.

The reason why ECL does not equal CR is because a monster with a CR can only use the magic item a few times at most in the ten rounds or less (on average) that you encounter it. A monster with an ECL can optimize the uses of its items over the span of multiple encounters and then start all over again the next day with daily use items.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

As it stands, a monster's CR is different from its ECL, because (as far as I have figured out), when monsters are used as PCs, they come equipped with X amount of treasure,

Not strictly true.

A monster that can cast Fireball 1 / hour means that, generally speaking, that monster has 1 fireball to use against your party.

A character that can cast Fireball 1 / hour means that, generally speaking, that character has a metric buttload of fireballs to use against the monsters.

The second is more powerful than the first - hence, an LA (which feeds ECL).

 

[BOZ]

i think that it's a great idea for the monsters to use their magic items against the PCs - unfortunately, i am lazy so i figure out the treasure after the encounter. "Aw man, that orc would have really like to have been wearing that magic plate mail!"

 

[Aikuchi]

It can get a little tedious to prepare an entire treasureset for each monster/encounter for me. So generally most wealth is rolled after the battle. It also gives a nice sense of random treasure than preset prepared loot which my players like.

However, the monsters sometimes may possess certain abilities that complement some suggested treasure or maybe just a simple expansion on what they already may possess.
In such casesm they will use whats at hand against the party. At the end of the encounter there is still a generic 'trasure' roll, so nothing really get used up (not much anyways ) Its nice for my players to know what MIGHT be on the creature while in battle and thay have a chance to get it for themselves. Gold and gems and vendor sale items and objects are usually rolled randomly (with some random items I throw in every now and then ... so they won't necessarily see a quest item unless they remembers its significance in some other part of the game before.)

=.^.^=

 

[Shemeska]

Not having monsters actually using 'treasure' they have in their possession is a bit irrational. Unless you're fighting retard orcs or something similar, it's incredibly lame IMHO to have them carrying things with no intention of ever using it, like they're randomly generated out of thin air to wait for adventurers to come and kill them. Taken to an extreme it brings up horror stories of games with everything rolled randomly in giant dungeons, with stuff happening like walking into a 20x50 room and *rolling dice* encountering 1d4 demogorgons.

Play 'monsters' as being appropriately intelligent, and have them using whatever they have to use, or else it's just a shooting gallery for the PCs, and they're not really having to work for what they get.

 

[Rev. Jesse]

Well, if you were a dragon with 20 Intelligence, wouldn't you use all the magic at your disposal against a band of deadly adventurers? Not having intelligent creatures use the full abilities raises a suspension of belief issue. An umber hulk might not use a potion of haste, but a mind flayer sure would.

I would say that, in most cases, the use of treasure by monsters should not increase their CR because the monster will generally get less use out of the item and then the PCs will. What's more, determing CR modifications for each item would be extremely time consuming and a lot of magic items are less effective then they would first appear, particularly as monsters and characters become more powerful. Consider a 9th level barbarian with 18 strength (melee attack bonus of +13). Give him a +1 weapon and his ability to hit the party only increases by 5%.

If you feel that magic item use has significantly improved the enemy's performance, an ad hoc award of +5% XP or +10% XP or whatever is probably an easier way to adjust the party's reward.

That having been said, enemies that use very powerful magic items, like a Mirror of Life Stealing, a Staff of the Magi, or the Sword of Kas probably should have some sort of adjustment. Of course, by the time the party encounters a Staff of the Magi it should be so powerful and prepared to fight powerful foes that the adjustment shouldn't be that significant.

A starting point for this question might be found at the end of the 'improving monsters' chapter of the MM under 'adding special abilities.' It suggests adding +2 CR if the ability 'stands a good change of [disabling] a character in one round.' The magic items listed above fit that bill. Added abilities that improve the combat effectivness of the monster in a minor way would add +1 to the CR of the creation, but consider that a haste potion is far more valuable and effective for a troll fighting a 5th level party than for a titan fighting a 20 level party (who, at that level, can be assumed to have prepared something like dispel magic).

Generally, I think you will find the usage of magic items by enemies (except for very powerful ones) will be less and less important the higher the party's level and monster's CR.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't know if treasure was counted by the designers as part of the CR, but probably it is just too complicated to check out if every monster is intelligent enough and has appropriate hands for ex. I guess that NPC CR at least takes equipment into account, but not classless monsters (except those who have a standard signature weapon such as the Balrog).

As a general rule I think that it's probably safer to add a little % of Xp if you give a monster a special item to use during battle, rather than fully increase its CR.

 

[EdL]

I wouldn't change the CR. But I haven't GMed much D&D for some time. But having 'monsters' use their 'treasure' in a fight themselves? Sure, every group I've ever played in has had someone say the magic words: "Hey, they're using our loot!" Fairly often in some cases.

 

[Sejs]

Wouldn't change the CR.

A wizard using Monster Summoning to whistle up some thoqqua doesn't change the encounter CR because whistling up thoqqua is something the wizard can do.

Likewise, using the stuff that's at his disposal is something the wizard can do.

Generally speaking the only monsters that have treasure and shouldn't use it are unintelligent monsters that just picked it up somewhere. Like gelatinous cubes.

Er, other gelatinous cubes that is.

Gelatinous cubes with markedly worse typing skills.


If you kill an orc, and that orc has a +1 axe, how can you explain why that orc couldn't use that axe? Was it buried in his loot gland, waiting to erupt out after his death?