monsters with classes advancement question

Voadam · Dec 19, 2002

I have a monster with 5HD and 3 character levels who is a part of the party and adventured with us and gained another character level in the last game.

When does the NPC creature gain feats and stat bonuses?

Book page references would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Piratecat · Dec 19, 2002

What kind of monster is it, and what is its ECL?

Douane · Dec 19, 2002

[Edit: Nevermind! Just read what Soldarin wrote. Should have done so myself.

]

This article by Soldarin should help with determining the points in question.

Hope this helps!

Folkert

isoChron · Dec 19, 2002

I have a similar problem with an Awakened wolf companion.
He had 3 HD before awakening, now 5 HD awakened and took 1 level ranger as he advanced from 5th to 6th level.

DM said he is 5th level after awakening because of 5HD so he gets a feat at 6th (now) and an ability point at 8th level (in 2 levels).
The feat at 1st and 3rd level are gone (he was wolf at that time) and the ability increase at 4th is wasted, too. Even the skillpoints for the first 5 levels are wasted because animals don't get any skillpoints for advancement in levels.

All that was DM call and my opinion is slightly different.
The wolf is now 6th level with power equal to a 3rd to 4th level character. He has heavy penalties (no weapons, few equipment, some skills are simply not usable).
I could handle it with 3 levels as wolf (animal) , yes, he advanced once, and now first level ranger (magical beast).
This would come out as 4th level character (Wolf3/Rgr1).
The two HD from Awaken count as some kind of bonus in my mind.

Just my 2Cents. I'm curious how other handled such problems.
Bye

Dr_Rictus · Dec 19, 2002

Since when does ECL have anything to do with feats and stat gains? I don't believe it does. As far as I know, Soldarin has it right. ECL affects experience progression and what levels and gear are appropriate in a party. It has nothing to do with level-dependent benifits, for which, as usual, level and HD are synonymous.

So, if by "5 HD and 3 character levels" you meant "5 (monster) HD plus 3 character levels" (for a total of 8 HD), then upon advancement you become level 9, and get a feat. If you meant "5 HD and (of these) 3 character levels", then upon advancement you've just hit level 6, and also get a feat.

StealthyMark · Dec 19, 2002

IMO, you count the monster HD separately from the class HD when determining feats and ability increases.

For example, a Trumpet Archon (Outsider, 12 HD) has 4 feats, for 1st, 4th, 8th and 12th "level". If this archon would gain three class levels, the archon can choose one feat; upon gaining four class levels, the archon receives an ability increase.

On contrast, if you would (wrongly) add monster HD and class HD together, the archon would receive one feat (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th) and three ability increases (4th, 8th, 12th) immidiately upon gaining one single class level.

Spatula · Dec 19, 2002

StealthyMark said:
On contrast, if you would (wrongly) add monster HD and class HD together, the archon would receive one feat (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th) and three ability increases (4th, 8th, 12th) immidiately upon gaining one single class level.

You're thinking about this the wrong way. Soldarin's method is, whatever you get from your monster HD *replaces* what you would have gotten from character HD, it's not retroactive. You add one level to a 12 HD monster, and you have 13 HD - which gets you nothing. If you add two more levels (3 levels total, 15 HD) you get a new feat, because normal characters get a feat at 15th level. You add another level (4 levels total, 16 HD), you get an ability increase.

A 12 HD monster isn't a great example. Take an 10 HD monster with class levels. It gets a new feat and an ability increase at 2nd level (12 HD), a second feat at 5th level (15 HD), and an ability increase at 6th level (16 HD). Plus whatever it got from its 10 monster HD.

Unfortunately, this topic is not covered anywhere in the DMG, or the other WOTC books with powerful races (FR, OA, etc.). Soldarin's way seems reasonable though.

the Jester · Dec 19, 2002

I always just count the third class level as the first class-based feat, the fourth class level as the first class-based ability increase, etc. It's easier on me as a dm when I'm advancing monsters, and the monster types all have their own feat advancement schemes anyhow.

Soldarin · Dec 19, 2002

There are two obvious ways of doing this.
The one described above (using total HD) and by starting fresh anew (using class levels only; starting with a feat at 1st level).

Either works fine, IMHO.

Shayuri · Dec 20, 2002

This is how I've always understood ECL races, based on the discussion of it in the FRCS.

The ECL of a race is not considered "levels" for any purpose other than exp needed to level in a class, and for equipment.

A 1st level drow (ECL+2) gets a 1st level feat. Not a 3rd level too.

A 3rd level tiefling (ECL+1) rogue gets no bonus stat point until he's 4rth level (and ECL 5).

The raw number of ECL bonus doesn't affect this basic truism, I wouldn't think. An Astral Deva (ECL +22) with a single level of fighter would be considered a level 23 character for fundage and exp to gain another level. It would have all the abilities of a 'baseline' Astral Deva, including any feats and skills that they're entitled to based on the Monster Manual's rules. Then, on top of that, it would get the 1st level feat, the fighter bonus feat, an additional d10 hit dice, and the attack and save bonuses due a level 23 character (the level of fighter is effectively an 'epic' level).

Admittedly, I do hope Savage Species clears the muddle up once and for all. It's one of the more confusing core issues remaining...