D&D 5E Monte Cook Leaves WotC - No Longer working on D&D Next [updated]

Remus Lupin

Adventurer
My point being that if 4e were not called "D&D 4e" nobody would have a problem with it. Heck, it could even have been called D&D, but marketed like Battlesystem, and it still would have done fine. But people fear change, and they fear things that are new. And yes, some just didn't like it, and that's fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke#cite_note-Prendergast355-4

If what you mean by this is: "It could have been marketed as a rules supplement to an existing D&D system, or else as a different RPG available on the market, then I think you're right. What 3.x people disliked was that this new version of D&D was supplanting our preferred edition, and if we got on board with it because we wanted to "keep playing D&D" then it meant we had to adopt elements of play and game presuppositions that we didn't like or weren't interested in. So we had to decide whether we wanted to keep playing the brand labeled D&D or whether we wanted to keep playing the game system labeled 3.x or OGL. Many of us went with the second option.

But could we reverse this? If there were a game on the market that was in every way like 4e but was called something else, like "Murray Clook's Arcania Unoerthed" would many of the partisans of 4e given it a look? Some very well may have, but I suspect the vast majority would have stuck with the D&D brand. I suspect in part that's because, absent the D&D brand, it would have seemed too different from what they understood D&D to be.
 

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Redbadge

Explorer
Here's an analogy, and honestly what many "arguments" I've heard sound like:

Nintendo has lost a lot of money recently (very few people have been buying the Wii recently). They also announced a new system recently to replace the one that wasn't selling.

But to call the Wii a flop would be ridiculous.

I've said this before, but I'll reiterate it again, there is such a thing as market saturation. 3.x reached it, 4e reached it very quickly (although DDI is still growing way faster than I would've expected), and Pathfinder will reach it as well (just much slower, apparently). And splat books won't keep this from happening, any more than new Wii games will keep Nintendo from moving on.
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
Unfortunately, the overwhelming enthusiasm for 4th edition does not entirely extend to niche, D&D-specific sites such as EnWorld (and even amongst these areas, you can find many people who loved 4e. They do not appear to be a minority even here).

I'm not so sure it's a problem on niche sites and overwhelmingly supported by nerd culture as a whole elsewhere. I've seen edition warring over 4e spill over into places online wholly divorced from this little niche, including a baseketball forum, deviantart, and of all places a my little pony board. It's a polarizing topic pretty much anywhere I've seen it discussed, with both those who loved it and those who rejected it.
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
What 3.x people disliked was that this new version of D&D was supplanting our preferred edition, and if we got on board with it because we wanted to "keep playing D&D" then it meant we had to adopt elements of play and game presuppositions that we didn't like or weren't interested in. So we had to decide whether we wanted to keep playing the brand labeled D&D or whether we wanted to keep playing the game system labeled 3.x or OGL. Many of us went with the second option.
And this is exactly where I find myself now with 5e on the horizon. There is little I can do to change WotC's direction on 5e as an individual, but at the same time, they can't break into my house and burn my books, nor can they uninstall my offline (and illegally updated) tools; I can keep playing 4e. If I don't like 5e, that's probably what I'll do, until I find something I like better. If someone finds a way to put out a 4e clone under the OGL, so much the better (it's being actively worked on).

But could we reverse this? If there were a game on the market that was in every way like 4e but was called something else, like "Murray Clook's Arcania Unoerthed" would many of the partisans of 4e given it a look? Some very well may have, but I suspect the vast majority would have stuck with the D&D brand. I suspect in part that's because, absent the D&D brand, it would have seemed too different from what they understood D&D to be.
I don't know. In 2007, I was very anti-WotC, and ready to bail on D&D entirely. I was actively looking for a new game; my group and I were tired of the warts, the system mastery, the imbalances at higher levels, the ridiculous prep time, the broken math, and on and on. I tried every D20 variant I could get my hands on, including E6 and the Pathfinder Alpha/Beta, Arcana Unearthed, the Books of Experimental Might, etc, and none of them fixed the issues or pushed the right buttons. I was, at the time, leaning toward using BRP, or several other runners-up to replace D&D at my gametable. The last thing I wanted any part of was 4e.

Then one of the guys in the group made us try it. It took me a little while to come around and see the merits of the system, but eventually, it just "clicked." The rest is history. I'm not saying that my experience is universal, but I assure you that it is far from unique. I am well aware that not everyone would have made such a jump; some people play whatever the "current" flavour is, and some play just because it is called "D&D", and they have their reasons, I'm sure. That said, I'm willing to bet that many of the folks that bailed on 3.x for 4e because they were looking for something different still would have found 4e-by-a-different-name.

Here's an analogy, and honestly what many "arguments" I've heard sound like:

Nintendo has lost a lot of money recently (very few people have been buying the Wii recently). They also announced a new system recently to replace the one that wasn't selling.

But to call the Wii a flop would be ridiculous.

I've said this before, but I'll reiterate it again, there is such a thing as market saturation. 3.x reached it, 4e reached it very quickly (although DDI is still growing way faster than I would've expected), and Pathfinder will reach it as well (just much slower, apparently). And splat books won't keep this from happening, any more than new Wii games will keep Nintendo from moving on.
This is a pretty decent analogy, actually.
 

Griego

First Post
Speaking of the New Coke analogy, I was reading up on it the other day. Seems a lot of folks who preferred Classic Coke, chose New Coke as the best-tasting in blind taste tests, and then became angry when told they didn't pick their preferred flavor. :lol:
 

Redbadge

Explorer
I'm not so sure it's a problem on niche sites and overwhelmingly supported by nerd culture as a whole elsewhere. I've seen edition warring over 4e spill over into places online wholly divorced from this little niche, including a baseketball forum, deviantart, and of all places a my little pony board. It's a polarizing topic pretty much anywhere I've seen it discussed, with both those who loved it and those who rejected it.

Of course, anyone willing to argue about any D&D edition on any forum is pretty darn niche. Also, the people most polarized about a topic are those most likely to talk about it. Finally, I've talked about D&D (in general) on various types of forums (including basketball), but forums that I just lurk on it never really comes up. I may be wrong, but I''ll think you'll find there was one common element between these three boards when you visited each of them (you, perhaps? :)). To put it another way, it seems that everywhere I go, there seems to be at least a bit of very enthusiastic support for 4e (it helps that everywhere I go, there I am.)

Now if you were really just lurking when the topic of 4e came up, well then...
 
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DMKastmaria

First Post
Here's an analogy, and honestly what many "arguments" I've heard sound like:

Nintendo has lost a lot of money recently (very few people have been buying the Wii recently). They also announced a new system recently to replace the one that wasn't selling.

But to call the Wii a flop would be ridiculous.

I've said this before, but I'll reiterate it again, there is such a thing as market saturation. 3.x reached it, 4e reached it very quickly (although DDI is still growing way faster than I would've expected), and Pathfinder will reach it as well (just much slower, apparently). And splat books won't keep this from happening, any more than new Wii games will keep Nintendo from moving on.

The Wii has a problem in that its game library is more geared toward younger children and families, than pre-teen, teen and adult gamers. My little boy loves his Wii. Give him another couple of years, though and he'll be asking for a PS3.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
The Wii has a problem in that its game library is more geared toward younger children and families, than pre-teen, teen and adult gamers. My little boy loves his Wii. Give him another couple of years, though and he'll be asking for a PS3.
I would say that furthers the analogy further still. I loathe thumb twitching; if the Wii had more decent games that used the interface properly I would play more of it than I do despite a total lack of knowledge of or interest in console games.

Likewise, 4e has had only pretty combat-focussed scenarios done really using it's approach and philosophy. If the social and exploration arenas were given as good a system coverage as combat in 4e I think it could be the ultimate RPG of its type.

But, it seems that some don't like that type of game (despite cleaving to D&D - go figure) and some have persuaded themselves that they don't like it because of the cluster?#(k made of the 4e marketing, IP management and changeover.
 

Some people think that if 4e isn't selling well then it must be a bad system. Too many others think that if 4e is a good system then it must be selling well. But I think the truth is exactly what Nemesis Destiny said -- the sales numbers for 4e, no matter what they are, don't tell us much about whether 4e is "better" or "worse" than 3e/Pathfinder or any other edition for that matter.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the game or the exact sales, so much as it has to do with the conclusions people are trying to draw from the end of 4E and its replacement by 5E.
 

Roland55

First Post
Who is to say that discarding 4E and its fans entirely and going back to 3.5E isn't equally suicidal? 4E is over, and 5E is coming, but it doesn't mean that 4E needs to be purged so that things can go back to how they should be, and that isn't what 5E is advertising.

Hmm. I could never make 4e work for me ... and yet I surely don't think 4e should be "purged."

Too many gamers like what 4e brings to the table. I can't believe the designers working on 5e will turn their back on 4e.
 

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