Monte Cook On Fumble Mechanics

Fumble mechanics have been part of the tabletop RPG experience for decades. Even where games don't have a fumble mechanic, many players house rule them in. A fumble is the opposite of a critical hit (or critical success) - its most common manifestation is a roll of 1 in a d20-based game (with a roll of 20 being the critical). Veteran game designer Monte Cook has some thoughts on fumble mechanics, and talks about them and how his Numenera RPG (and all of the Cypher System line) use an "intrusion" instead.

Fumble mechanics have been part of the tabletop RPG experience for decades. Even where games don't have a fumble mechanic, many players house rule them in. A fumble is the opposite of a critical hit (or critical success) - its most common manifestation is a roll of 1 in a d20-based game (with a roll of 20 being the critical). Veteran game designer Monte Cook has some thoughts on fumble mechanics, and talks about them and how his Numenera RPG (and all of the Cypher System line) use an "intrusion" instead.


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It can be a divisive issue. If you're like me, you've experimented with fumble mechanics of various kinds over the years. When I was 12, I remember one character accidentally shooting a fellow character in the back of the head and killing him. Monte Cook's thoughts on the matter are that "we don’t want to run games that “punish” players for rolling bad. A GM intrusion isn’t meant to be “punishment”—it’s meant to make things more interesting. But a fumble, for many people, just seems like a moment for everyone to laugh at them, and that’s not always fun."

If you look around, you'll find dozens of fumble house rules for most games. They clearly provide a draw to those who like to tinker with their games. But many games deliberately do not include any such rule.

You can read the rest of Monte's article here. What are your thoughts on fumble mechanics?
 

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Again, for whatever reason one may not want to talk about these metagaming aspects of GMing. But as best I can recall you are literally the only RPGer I have ever encountered who contends that a GM who follows Moldvay's advice is doing his/her job wrong.
As I've mentioned in other places, I started with AD&D (2E), so I have no direct experience with anything that came before. Taking everything at face value, though, it sounds like Moldvay's game has more in common with the wargaming roots of the hobby, and somewhat less in common with the living-world anti-meta-gaming craze that redefined the hobby in the late eighties and early nineties.

Or it could just be some degree of miscommunication, with different words trying to convey the same idea. More likely, it's a little bit of each.
 

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pemerton

Legend
As I've mentioned in other places, I started with AD&D (2E), so I have no direct experience with anything that came before.
Which to me makes it all the more odd that you describe your approach as traditional.

Another oddity is that 2nd ed is the high-watermark for D&D adventures written to be meta-gamed - mostly via GM force used to railroad the players through them.
 

Another oddity is that 2nd ed is the high-watermark for D&D adventures written to be meta-gamed - mostly via GM force used to railroad the players through them.
If you want to suggest that the adventures from that era were poorly written, and out of touch with the rest of that edition, then I certainly would not disagree.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I'm not sure that you get to criticise Monte Cook's blog on the basis of a definition that he is not using and that you are making up and then imputing to him.

Here is the passage where Monte characterises the sort of fumble mechanic that he rejects:

the GM actually incorporates some version of the joke into the actual narrative of the game—that is to say, that Bruce’s character said something foolish or untoward . . .​

Generalising that, he is rejecting a fumble mechanic in which a fumble results in the character suffering a comically adverse consequence due to ineptitude or foolishness.

Well, first of all, if that were true then it is Monte and not me that is injecting a novel definition of the word fumble, since such a definition would mean that a good portion of what we think of as fumbles in RPGs aren't fumbles. While you sometimes see entries in a fumble table written in a comic fashion or describing foolishness, often they just represent additional complications - your sword breaks, you pull a muscle, you inadvertently drop your guard, etc.

Secondly, his definition - if that is what it actually is - is subjective to the point of being useless. There is almost no controlling what someone will find comic. Elendil falling off his horse and shattering his own sword isn't meant to be a moment of light comedy, but in another situation presented with a different tone it certainly could be, and in particular at an RPG table where friends are used to ribbing and teasing each other and cracking jokes that it would be a scene of at least some mirth might be inevitable with some groups regardless of the GM's intention. I can recall junior high kids crying when PC's died, but no such high emotion of tragedy in my adult groups. This current group is a group that thought it rather funny when a critical hit to an NPC resulted in his spine being shattered.

Regardless then, if a character suffers adverse consequences, some might find it funny. Apparently you - or in your words Monte - would define adverse consequences as being either a fumble or not a fumble depending on whether someone at the table snickers.

That makes me snicker.

As used by those who coined the phrase (Ron Edwards et al)...

I feel like I'm arguing over the implementation of Communism with Karl Marx when you say that sort of thing.

..."no whiffing" means that the mechanical system does not produce outcomes that model incompetence.

Stop there. That's enough definition to go on. If that's the definition we use, then the definition is fine and congruent with what I just said.

If you go trying to implement this thing as a mechanic rather than an actual idea, you'll end up very much with something like my idea of 'success with complications' or 'partial success' or else you won't actually implement it at all. In other words, much as Marx would prefer to say that he's proven Communism is historically inevitable, and that Communism is inherently superior, but would prefer not and is not actually able to describe in detail how is hypothetical theory would actually work, so to is Edwards prone to grand theorizing about things that have no practical implementation or which when implemented produce sensations that are nothing like he describes. A case in point:

The paradigmatic example is that skilled warriors don't swing wild when trying to hit their foes.

Fine. That's still congruent with my definition, but then...

It has nothing to do with whether or not action declarations fail: in opposed contexts, such as (say) Glorfindel fighting the Witch-King, it is completely consistent with "no whiffing" for Glorfindel's player to suffer a complete failure (eg the Witch King cuts Glorfindel's head off). Because in this case Glorfindel has not manifested incompetence; it's just that he has been bested by one of the most powerful sorcerous warriors in Middle Earth.

A situation that is indistinguishable in actual practice from incompetence. Indeed, it's a situation that in practice is pretty much indistinguishable from a fumble by either definition, in that decapitation is a classic over the top 'you failed' result in RPGs, and I can imagine a table that laughs when Glorfindel is decapitated. Moreover, if your definition devolves down to "you aren't incompetent, you are just a whole lot less competent than an NPC" then your definition of competence is meaningless.

And how is being decapitated "failing forward", since you previously quoted someone equating the two?

Bah. Your words and definitions shimmy around to mean whatever you like at the moment. If you want "no whiffing" to mean failing forward because that serves your argument, then it does, and if you want it later to mean being decapitated to serve some different purpose, then it does. Of course, Ron Edwards is much the same, as his wholly unfunctional definition that you could never actually turn into a gaming mechanic proves:

Whiffing refers, I think, more to the sensation...

A sensation? Your mechanic depends on a player's sensation? How the heck is that supposed to work?

Another situation that gives rise to the sensation is when failing the attempt doesn't make anything happen. So you either get something, or tread water. This is what leads to those horrible fights-that-never-end, weary, roll-miss-tune-out sessions.

If you put his abstract ideas together though, and say that to implement "no whiffing" your skills have to be reliable and have to produce a consequence on failure, you end up with something very like my definition. You end up modifying the failure stake from being "no consequence" to something that looks a lot like "success with consequences" in some form.

In the context of AD&D combat, for instance, with its 1 minute rounds...

So now we are back to your wobbly definitions and square pegs firmly hammered into round holes. It's pretty easy to show that AD&D combat doesn't have the characteristics you suggest, regardless of how you try to narrate it. It's quite possible, indeed rather likely, that both participants swing and miss with the result of nothing about the situation changes - directly contradicting even your own purposed definition of "no whiffing". That's not "no whiffing". That's not "failing forward". Aren't we indeed rather near those "horrible fights-that-never-end, weary, roll-miss-tune-out sessions" we typically call "grinds", which for that matter isn't all that far from what 4e is famous for?

Despite all that, I think I know where you are coming from. You are trying to say that there is a big difference in the color of failure. As for example, in Rashomon both the Bandit and the Woodcutter recount the same fight with the same results, but one description of the fight appears heroic and the other appears marked by incompetence. You could say that the bandit's story was produced by a system that implemented "no whiffing" and the woodcutter's story was produced by one that had "fumbles". But the fundamental problem with that is that so much of the sensation aspect is beyond the control of the system or the storyteller. The fiction exists fundamentally in the minds of the participants and each are going to experience it differently. What strikes one as comic might strike another as tragic, and what strikes one as heroic might strike another as farce. And you certainly are going to drop to the farce end of the spectrum eventually if you are trying to hold up this idea wholly through narration without substantial difference in how things actually work.

UPDATE: And interestingly enough, if you'd quote just a little bit outside of the carefully excised snippets you are quoting to "prove" your assertion, and get into the areas where we have to implement the idea you'd see that my definition is pretty darn congruent. For example:

"...A more constructive way to interpret failure is as a near-success or event that happens to carry unwanted consequences or side effects. The character probably still fails to achieve the desired goal, but that’s because something happens on the way to the goal rather than because nothing happens."​
 
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Mortellan

Explorer
Now show how that high level 3E fighter with 4 attacks per round screws up 4 times as often as Bob the 1st level warrior. Fumble rules just screw over exceptional PCs, glad we never used them.
In my experience, fumble rules keep fighters with 4 attacks honest. I've seen plenty of min/maxed fighters never miss a swing except on 1's. Should all their misses be fumbles? Probably not, but short of battling gods and dragons it is the only means of making some fights a challenge. I've played too much Warhammer to relish playing a battle that is mathematically over after initiative is rolled.
 

pemerton

Legend
That's enough definition to go on. If that's the definition we use, then the definition is fine and congruent with what I just said.

If you go trying to implement this thing as a mechanic rather than an actual idea, you'll end up very much with something like my idea of 'success with complications' or 'partial success' or else you won't actually implement it at all.

<snip>

"...A more constructive way to interpret failure is as a near-success or event that happens to carry unwanted consequences or side effects. The character probably still fails to achieve the desired goal, but that’s because something happens on the way to the goal rather than because nothing happens."
A near-success is not a success with complications. A near-success is a failure; something short of success.

And your assertion to the contrary makes me wonder how much experience you have with "no whiffing" or "fail forward"-style mechanics.

There is a very long recent thread on this, here. A number of actual play examples have been menioned. Here are two, from my BW game:

(1) The PCs are travelling through the Bright Desert, heading to a ruined tower in the Abor-Alz which, up until 14 years ago, was the home of the PC mage and his (NPC) brother - they abandoned it when it was attacked by orcs and the brother, in an attempt to cast a might spell against the orcs, failed his casting and was possessed by a balrog. The elven ronin ranger PC is guiding them through the desert.

The elf's orienteering check fails. The consequence, as narrated by me (the GM): the PCs arrive at the waterhole at the foot of the Abor-Alz, but it has been fouled be a dark elf, and so there is no fresh water to be had. Another Forte test has to be made by each PC, resulting in more loss of Forte due to dehydration.

(2) Having arrived at the tower, the PCs are searching it, looking for a nickel-silver mace that the PC mage had forged some 14 years ago, and had abandoned in the tower. The Scavenging check fails. The consequence, as narrated by me (the GM): the PCs find that the mace is not in the tower, but they do discover something - in the ruins of what was the private workroom of the brother, they find cursed black arrows, identical to the broken arrow that the elven ronin carries on a cord around his neck, which was shot by an orc and killed his master. Up until this point the goal of the mage PC has been to free his brother from possession; now he is forced to consider that his brother may not be redeemable, and that his evil may have led to the balrog possession rather than vice versa.​

These are examples of "no whiffing". Failure does not lead to "treading water" - something changes in the fiction. Failure does not reveal the PCs as incompetent - they do not get lost in the desert, or overlook anything in the tower. In neither case do they succeed, however - they do not find fresh water, and they do not find the mace.

A third example also mentioned in that thread does exemplify "success with complication": in the first session of the campaign, the mage PC used aura reading to determine whether a feather being offered for sale as an angel feather really was such a thing. The check failed; and the consequence that I narrated was that the feather was indeed an angel feather, but it was also cursed.

But the idea that "fail forward" or "no whiffing" is always, or even typically, "success with complication" is simply not correct.
 

Celebrim

Legend
A near-success is not a success with complications. A near-success is a failure; something short of success.

Yes, what constitutes 'partial success', 'near success', or 'success with complications' is a matter of perspective. It's like I was trying to explain about mapping movies to mechanics - you can't do it accurate because you don't know the counterfactuals. Your 'failure' form my perspective looks very much like 'success with complications'. In fact, I would argue that even from your examples, what you describe is much closer to success with complications than it is to failure. As usual, your description of your own play doesn't match the details of your play. Just like you claim to be play 'no myth' when you describe prepping myth, so now you are describing 'success with complications' as something other than what it obviously is.

For example:

(1) The PCs are travelling through the Bright Desert, heading to a ruined tower in the Abor-Alz...The elven ronin ranger PC is guiding them through the desert...The elf's orienteering check fails. The consequence, as narrated by me (the GM): the PCs arrive at the waterhole at the foot of the Abor-Alz, but it has been fouled be a dark elf, and so there is no fresh water to be had.

Now in normal procedural play, if you are making an orientation check the stakes are 'You get where you are going' or 'You don't get where you are going'. So then the check is failed, and because you are playing 'no whiff' or 'fail forward' or whatever you want to call it, instead of getting the consequence 'You don't get where you are going' (presumably they become lost and don't get to the tower of Abor-Alz) they got the consequence 'You do get to the tower of Abor-Alz, BUT there is a complication'. That is partial success. That is success with complications BY THE BLOODY @#@$ing DEFINITION. Whatever you want to call it, it's still a partial success. They failed their orientation check AND STILL GOT WHERE THEY ARE GOING. How can you not see that?

In any event, when the mechanical implementation is open ended like this, it's not possible to draw bright lines around 'partial success' or 'near success' or 'success with complications'. They all shade off into each other. When Chewy is trying to put C3P0 back together, and he puts his head on backwards, was that 'partial success', 'near success' or 'success with complications'? One DM may say one thing, and one the other, because those things are basically different terms for the same freaking thing.
 

pemerton

Legend
Now in normal procedural play, if you are making an orientation check the stakes are 'You get where you are going' or 'You don't get where you are going'. So then the check is failed, and because you are playing 'no whiff' or 'fail forward' or whatever you want to call it, instead of getting the consequence 'You don't get where you are going' (presumably they become lost and don't get to the tower of Abor-Alz) they got the consequence 'You do get to the tower of Abor-Alz, BUT there is a complication'. That is partial success. That is success with complications BY THE BLOODY @#@$ing DEFINITION.

<snip>

was that 'partial success', 'near success' or 'success with complications'? One DM may say one thing, and one the other, because those things are basically different terms for the same freaking thing.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...Cook-On-Fumble-Mechanics/page12#ixzz40n59NMFF
Failing to find fresh water when navigating a desert looking for water is not success. It is failure - the noun failure being cognate with the verb failing in the phrase failing to find fresh water.

Success with complications would be (for instance) arriving at fresh water, but having to negotiate with a nemesis in order to gain access to the waterhole (in this case, perhaps, the desert raider Wasal who had earlier evicted the PCs from his camp).

If the party was equipped with a decanter of endless water (or spells to create water, etc), then what is at stake would obviously be different. But they weren't. Not dehydrating in the desert was (unsurprisingly, I think) key to what was at stake in this particular moment of play.

In the thread that I linked to, [MENTION=99817]chaochou[/MENTION] gave an interesting actual play example: in order to defend the compound from assailants, the PC urges her tribe to help her build giant effigies to be carried to the walls to scare away their enemies; and the check failed, and so the tribe agreed to sacrifice the PC inside them, Wicker-man style, so as to scare away their enemies.

That's not "success with a complication". That's failure.

You could say that both chaochou's example, and the waterhole example, are "partial success" or "near success" - in one case, the effigies get made and the tribe has agreed to use them to try and drive away their enemies; in the other, the PCs do make it across the desert. But this only shows that "partial success" and "success with complications" are different things.

(In chaochou's case, success with complications might mean - for instance - that the tribe builds the effigies and carries them to the walls of the compound, driving away the enemies, but attracting the adverse attention of the being of whom they are effigies.)
 

delericho

Legend
In my experience, fumble rules keep fighters with 4 attacks honest. I've seen plenty of min/maxed fighters never miss a swing except on 1's. Should all their misses be fumbles?

By the time that 3e fighter gets four attacks, his friend the Wizard is casting two spells a round, one or both of which might well end the battle before it starts, and with no chance of fumbling. Who keeps him honest?
 

Who keeps him honest?

The Spell Fumble table!

Magic being wild and unpredictable, every single time a spell is cast, the caster has to roll an unmodified D20. Any roll equal to or less than the level of the spell being cast is a fumble. If a spell is fumbled, roll a D6:

1: The caster channels just the wrong amount of energy inwards and explodes, leaving nothing but a red smear on the floor and a gently spinning hat.

2. A slight miscalculation causes the caster to launch themselves beyond orbit at close to the speed of light. If outdoors the caster is dead, but primitive creatures witnessing the spectacle are so impressed by the fireworks that they grant the rest of the party safe passage. Same indoors, but with the addition of a smoky stain on the ceiling.

3: The rapid contortions required by the spell dislocate both the caster's shoulders and then they break their own neck as they fall over. 16d12 damage. Any creature nearby with a sense of humour has to save vs paralysis or laugh for 1d4 rounds.

4. The caster has discovered a hitherto unknown spell and has cast it perfectly! It is called "Summon brain eating beetles to dine on my brain!" The caster loses 16 points of INT and is now a Level 1 Barbarian.

5. The effort and energy of the spell causes the caster to shake themselves apart. Roll 1d6 for each leg, arm and head the caster possesses. On a roll of 1-4 it falls off. On a 5 it breaks for 2d6 damage. On a 6 it breaks for 2d6 damage, and then falls off.

6. Unable to stand the stresses and pressures of adventuring any longer the caster subconsciously modifies the spell to provide them camoflage and respite. They permanently become... (roll 1d4):

1) A goldfish, in a clear, cheap bowl filled with water (value 1sp)
2) A lemon meringue pie
3) Made entirely of wax
4) A 10-foot pole
 
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