Monte Cooks First Legends and Lore

[Gronin]

Yup. And have them save versus poison. Cause ya know there's gonna be some poison. And maybe an explosion.

Heh.... isn't there always.

 

[Barastrondo]

No system can cure the problem of two players wanting to play different games.

Yeah, this. At that point you might as well be talking about what happens when one player is more interested in talking his way past combats, and another really enjoys combats. You can look at the combat system as the potential culprit, but it's not going to be nearly as effective as hashing things out with the players.

 

[wrecan]

Rather, it is only marginally useful solely on action resolution grounds, compared to current options, in that it makes it easier for the DM to manage the challenges.

Even there, it's no more useful than "Auto for Trained; roll for everyone else."

Is anyone claiming that somewhere between 3E to 4E skills, we have the perfect answer?

I'm not. I'm only claiming that Mearls' description doesn't clearly explain what his proposal is trying to accomplish, how it accomplishes it better than the existing system, and why accomplishing it in this way is superior to other options. Without those three elemnts, I cannot gauge whether he even met his own goals, much less whether I agree with those goals.

If you are going to refine what is there, then poking around at the boundaries of why skills aren't quite perfect is going to take this kind of thinking. The failings are often subtle.

I'm not sure what he's poking, what the stick is, or what he thinks is going to happen if he keeps poking.

 

[RHGreen]

Skills rolls for perception should not direct you to the ultimate item of interest. Perception rolls should point you to an item of interest that points to an ultimate item of interest. That's a clunky way of saying it so I'll explain.

NOT

Perception -> Secret Door

Your skill roll is successful - "You find a secret door."

BUT

Perception -> Protruding Brick -> Interaction(Push inwards) -> Secret Door

Your skill roll is successful - "You notice a brick sticking out a little further than the rest of the wall."

"I push the brick."

"A section of the wall slides away to reveal an opening."


I think this illustrates the problem with how skills and rolls are used in games today and I think a lot of it comes down to DM/player laziness and really poor adventure design (room after room of a, more or less, random collection of enemies with a dash of environment features, typically a patch that slows you down.)

The above example is really really simple but it is amazing how modern games are described in the NOT camp.

All we need now is a PERCEPTION button and a little ding when it is successful.

I think this is the part that needs addressing the most.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'm not sure what he's poking, what the stick is, or what he thinks is going to happen if he keeps poking.

I'm not 100% sure myself, though I've got some ideas. Suffice it to say for now that I intuit that the pokee deserves the poker.

 

[Kzach]

Spot on IMO. If someone searches for a movable tooth and that is where the secret door is, don't roll. Don't give them a 'bonus'. Just tell them that they have found it, for goodness sake!

At what point is DM fiat EVER not an option solely because someone uses this or any other system?

Seriously, people, it's like everyone has to find something to nit-pick on and argue over whether that something actually exists or is a reasonable assertion based on the evidence, or not; and so far in this thread, it's mostly not.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

Take something that like an "Expert" secret door. Characters with an Expert level in perception will auto discover the door. The Prod/Poker does not get his jollys even if she specifically says "I'm running my fingers along the cracks in that wall." unless she is a Apprentice, or lower, in perception. If she is an expert there is no advantage to her prodding and poking as she would auto discover the door. She will get some advantages is the door is Masterly hidden.

I'm not sure if their is a solution to this problem. I'm not adverse to players auto succeeding because of training, but I think it needs to be active. Passive stuff annoys me because it is silly, there is no outside force setting the DCs, I set them, so I'm dictating whether the PC passes or fails. Pointless.

Well, you give the solution yourself: the player has to actively do something to gain an auto-success. If the PC is searching in roughly the right area, she will find the door because of her training without a chance of failure due to a bad die roll. If she doesn't search, the secret door still doesn't jump at her yelling "Harr, I'm a secret door, but you discovered me!"

For the prodder, it's pretty much the other way round. He won't find the door unless the player specifies the action which uncovers it.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Take something that like an "Expert" secret door. Characters with an Expert level in perception will auto discover the door. The Prod/Poker does not get his jollys even if she specifically says "I'm running my fingers along the cracks in that wall." unless she is a Apprentice, or lower, in perception. If she is an expert there is no advantage to her prodding and poking as she would auto discover the door. She will get some advantages is the door is Masterly hidden.

I think it relatively easy to build some advantages in here. Remember though that the prime motive of all of this is to get the PCs interacting with their environment as much as possible so they can be immersed in the game, the situation and what is going on. If the system makes things automatic, then this prime motive goes out the window - and likewise as you and Lost Soul say from the player's perspective, they miss out on enjoyably flexing their mental muscles too.

As such the process should be:

1) A pointer that something may be important.
If you have a secret door in a 500ft. blank corridor, you're asking for trouble. Instead if there is a statue or something of significance that can be investigated, you stop the paralyzing 5ft. search macro.

2) The PCs must interact with the environment.
Even the master perception PC too! If the player triggers the secret door with the tooth lever then they should be rewarded (XP, "Hero" point or some other game currency that can be used to advantage).

3) Give any automatic information.
If the player doesn't find this, then the master PC will, but only after the location has been interacted with. It is up to the DM and knowledge of their players when to keep things moving.

I'm not sure if their is a solution to this problem. I'm not adverse to players auto succeeding because of training, but I think it needs to be active. Passive stuff annoys me because it is silly, there is no outside force setting the DCs, I set them, so I'm dictating whether the PC passes or fails. Pointless.

On the one hand you do set the passive DCs by choosing whether to have a master secret door or standard secret door. However, your choice of which door is not in a vacuum. You should still be guided by the environment, situation and history - not the ranks of your PCs. This also gets back to the pointer point I made, if you have something to be discovered then there should be some guide that a particular area requires more than just passive perception. If it's in the middle of nowhere, then you are just setting your game up for fail or paralyzing search routines.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[I'm A Banana]

I wonder how many people who are fond of this would be fond of this in combat.

"Okay, the Fighter and the Thief have Expert Attack Rolls, the Cleric has Middling Attack Rolls, and the Wizard has Trainee Attack Rolls.

A CHALLENGER APPROACHES. It has Expert AC.

Well, guess the Cleric and the Wizard can sit this one out."

NOT A FAN.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I wonder how many people who are fond of this would be fond of this in combat.

"Okay, the Fighter and the Thief have Expert Attack Rolls, the Cleric has Middling Attack Rolls, and the Wizard has Trainee Attack Rolls.

A CHALLENGER APPROACHES. It has Expert AC.

Well, guess the Cleric and the Wizard can sit this one out."

NOT A FAN.

What's the wizard's magic roll? Why does the cleric need to sit this one out? He can roll and look for circumstances to boost his attack roll, and being a cleric, probably has some good other stuff to do as well. What do the fighter and thief get for free due to being expert, versus what do they still roll for (special powers, special effects)?