Moral Dilemma: Killing and Deaths in RPGs

[Victor Spieles]

This rings true for me, too. As a middle-school teacher who sponsors the school RPG club and runs an RPG summer camp, I introduce a lot of young people to the joys of this hobby. But, I was weaned on D&D and have absorbed many of its tropes, so my default style of play includes a fair amount of combat. I've often been surprised by the young folks who start playing for the first time. Some of them, having played tons of CRPGs, enter the game world expecting to battle their way to glory. Others are bemused or even put off by this approach. They're much more interested in finding clever solutions, creative compromises, and non-violent options. They often want to learn about the monsters' cultures and find out what they want out of the world. They expect the game to support and encourage that sort of fiction.

As I've evolved with running the club and summer camp, I've de-centered violence as much as possible. It's there for those who want it, but we don't present it as a necessary component of an RPG. This has gone over pretty well, though plenty of groups retain a murder-hobo aesthetic.

The game I am most familiar with these days is GURPS. Although it includes a potentially intricate combat system, the default system is deadly, so there is a disincentive to be casual about it. It is also a skill-based system that covers a wide array of genres, so it's easy to focus on social conflict and other subsystems. I've played in games with little or no violence. I, myself, have been most comfortable running the dungeon fantasy flavor of GURPS, which tunes things to encourage more battle (and makes it relatively difficult for PCs to die). I'd like to move my own campaigns away from this, but I often fall back on familiar tropes.

Based on @Grendel_Khan's suggestion above, I picked up a copy of Scum and Villainy and started reading it last night. It reads well and I look forward to trying it out for a change of pace.

Uzirath great post and approach to introducing young students to RPGs. I'm also excited about @Grendel_Khan suggestion of Scum and Villainy. I went ahead and ordered that to read and play as well.

 

[Victor Spieles]

Maybe too many Millennials grew up with Saving Private Ryan, where the released German soldier comes back and kills tons of Americans.

I've done that once, with a particularly nasty ogre; but normally IMCs enemies who flee aren't keen on a rematch, and surrendered enemies are often recruitable - my son is particularly keen on doing this, and it's extremely Gygax/Arneson Old School, much moreso than always killing everything IMO. There are various ways to make enemies worth more alive than dead, eg ransom, which is standard in Runequest and should be standard in medievalesque settings with feuding nobles. The more you get away from 'hostile races locked in a war of extermination', the more not-killing can be normalised.

Edit: Killing is ubiquitous in computer games because it's a lot easier to code than enemies who surrender. This is definitely an advantage of TTRPGs.

S'mon I'm in the same mode of thinking as your son and Gygax/Arneson of recruiting or aligning NPC villains to assist your parties goal or quest. The last D&D game I played in as a player, Tyranny of Dragons, I tried to persuade all the main NPC adversaries to switch sides and aid the party to stop the summoning and arrival of Tiamat. It drove the other 3 players crazy because they didn't get to murder-hobo about half the villains in the campaign and take their magic items and treasure. But all my diplomacy and talking ended up helping the party succeed in a much less violent ending to the campaign. When we went to the temple to stop the summoning of Tiamat all the allies I had accumulated over the course of the campaign showed up with their respective factions, soldiers and followers. The DM loved that the ending came down to only having to run the final combat because the number of allies I had accumulated now sorely outnumbered Tiamat's followers and army so they parlayed and surrendered. The other three players were not happy though that they didn't get to showboat their min/maxed characters super combat powers in multiple bloody encounters to finish up the campaign. That really was the big tipping point for me on combat, slaying monsters and villains in D&D and RPGs.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

From your side, their behavior looks like emotional immaturity.
From their side, your stance looks like lack of empathy.

Bro, anyone who throws a hissy fit over a dead character needs to grow up, even if just a little.

 

[Fenris-77]

Bro, anyone who throws a hissy fit over a dead character needs to grow up, even if just a little.

IDK if I agree completely. If that character died because of DM shenanigans, or stupid bloody DM decision making, then there's some room for legitimate upsetness. YMMV I guess.

 

[Deset Gled]

Bro, anyone who throws a hissy fit over a dead character needs to grow up, even if just a little.

"... and that's how an Old Yeller matinee got me banned from the movie theater. If you think that's good, let me tell you about things Disneyland guests really don't appreciate hearing about Bambi's mom. Kids these days... "

 

[Jd Smith1]

"... and that's how an Old Yeller matinee got me banned from the movie theater. If you think that's good, let me tell you about things Disneyland guests really don't appreciate hearing about Bambi's mom. Kids these days... "

PCs die. Getting upset over that is akin to mourning the loss of a rook in chess.

There are gamers who take the 'escapism' aspect of the hobby far, far too seriously.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

"... and that's how an Old Yeller matinee got me banned from the movie theater. If you think that's good, let me tell you about things Disneyland guests really don't appreciate hearing about Bambi's mom. Kids these days... "

Yawn. Outsized reactions to trivial things (yes, your D&D PC is a trivial thing) is a hallmark of immaturity.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

IDK if I agree completely. If that character died because of DM shenanigans, or stupid bloody DM decision making, then there's some room for legitimate upsetness. YMMV I guess.

Sure, if it seems Like the DM is cheating it sucks. I still can't imagine coming to actual tears over a d&d character. It something i have never seen, either...And i started playing this game when i was nine.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Bro, anyone who throws a hissy fit over a dead character needs to grow up, even if just a little.

Yawn. Outsized reactions to trivial things (yes, your D&D PC is a trivial thing) is a hallmark of immaturity.

It's much more mature to judge others online, right? To me, this looks like a outsized reaction (multiple posts) to a trivial thing (an anecdote about a young player).

 

[Jd Smith1]

Sure, if it seems Like the DM is cheating it sucks. I still can't imagine coming to actual tears over a d&d character. It something i have never seen, either...And i started playing this game when i was nine.

Sadly, I have. As absurd as it might seem, earlier this year I saw a 40-year-old (who still lives with his parents) reduced to tears over his PC's fate.

It wasn't D&D, but that is a moot point.