Level Up (A5E) More love for archers?

[scaramouche]

I know many contributors to these forums and the Level Up games have been traumatized by archers and fights in huge 300 yard fields, but the skew towards melee combatants, particularly in maneuvers, is really intense. I did a quick count and there are 67 maneuvers that require a melee weapon and ... 12 that require ranged (all within Biting Zephyr).

Any chance we might get some content for ranged weapon users such that they don't all have exactly the same maneuvers? Perhaps in a Gate Gazette?

 

[VenerableBede]

You could write up another combat tradition, or more archetypes, etc, and submit it when the next pitch call goes around.

 

[thuter]

I think one problem is that the Biting Zephyr basically already adds most of what you would want as an archer; more range, safety in melee, some tricks. The same goes for the only ranged fighter subclass: Sharpshooter. You basically get all you ever need at level 3. So generic bow-character will probably want biting zephyr and get some support maneuvers from another tradition. So if you were to make another tradition, it needs to adress significantly different things, and I am having a hard time thinking of them. Same goes for subclass really... Unless you want to go magical, zen archery, eldritch archer kind of stuff (not suited for tradition). I would prefer to change the traditions a bit to be usable with any weapon, instead of just melee. Some maneuvers would be strong or outright broken (mechanical sense, not power sense), but that is what I enjoyed most in the O5E Battlemaster: A lot of those maneuvers just required "a weapon attack".

What I would like to see is something akin to the Marauder archetype of the 4E Ranger, which got bonuses for alternating ranged and melee attacks, focused on mobility and thrown weapons. But thrown weapon fighting style here nets you bonus damage only on ranged attacks you make with them (I assume to not stack with Dueling), and at that point you are just making a STR based archer with less range, because there is not really an added benefit to making melee attacks with your thrown weapon, especially not for sharpshooters where you can just make ranged attacks in melee anyways.

 

[xiphumor]

There’s not rule saying we can’t expand the Biting Zephyr tradition! That being said, I have a hard time trying to invent maneuvers the way one invents spells. However, we could brainstorm here!

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think one problem is that the Biting Zephyr basically already adds most of what you would want as an archer; more range, safety in melee, some tricks. The same goes for the only ranged fighter subclass: Sharpshooter. You basically get all you ever need at level 3. So generic bow-character will probably want biting zephyr and get some support maneuvers from another tradition. So if you were to make another tradition, it needs to adress significantly different things, and I am having a hard time thinking of them. Same goes for subclass really... Unless you want to go magical, zen archery, eldritch archer kind of stuff (not suited for tradition). I would prefer to change the traditions a bit to be usable with any weapon, instead of just melee. Some maneuvers would be strong or outright broken (mechanical sense, not power sense), but that is what I enjoyed most in the O5E Battlemaster: A lot of those maneuvers just required "a weapon attack".

What I would like to see is something akin to the Marauder archetype of the 4E Ranger, which got bonuses for alternating ranged and melee attacks, focused on mobility and thrown weapons. But thrown weapon fighting style here nets you bonus damage only on ranged attacks you make with them (I assume to not stack with Dueling), and at that point you are just making a STR based archer with less range, because there is not really an added benefit to making melee attacks with your thrown weapon, especially not for sharpshooters where you can just make ranged attacks in melee anyways.

Perhaps something with firearms?

 

[xiphumor]

Okay, a few rough ideas:

Snipershot - no penalty when attacking at long range, advantage when attacking at short range.

Warning shot - Near miss, rattle target

Pin down - pin a target to a point with your projectile. Must use an action to remove.

 

[thuter]

There’s not rule saying we can’t expand the Biting Zephyr tradition! That being said, I have a hard time trying to invent maneuvers the way one invents spells. However, we could brainstorm here!

I quite like this idea, however: It would make BZ even more of a requirement for going ranged. It would still expand options within the tradition though.

I think flavourwise, most traditions have a distinct feeling to it; heavy juggernaut, nimble duelist, underhanded tactics, teamwork... But for BZ that description feels like 'you attack with range', which is why it feels so broad. If they had made different ranged traditions (precision sniper, mobile skirmisher) that would probably feel a lot different and would make playing ranged feel more diverse.

I would like the following stuff/flavour from a skirmisher/marauder tradition:

Lightning and Thunder - Make a ranged weapon attack against a creature within 30 feet, then move next to the target and make a melee attack with a melee weapon you are wielding. On a hit, you knock the target prone.

False Security - While adjacent to an enemy, make a ranged weapon attack against a creature that is not adjacent to you. You do not suffer disadvantage for making a ranged attack while adjacent to an enemy, and your attack deals an additional die of weapon damage.

Manticore Stance - When you hit an enemy with a ranged attack, you deal +2 damage on your next melee attack against an enemy. When you hit an enemy with a melee attack, you gain an expertise die on your next ranged weapon attack roll against an enemy. These bonuses do not stack.

Marauder Stance - You gain an expertise die to AC against opportunity attacks made while moving. In addition, you can pick up any unattended weapons or ammunition within your reach without spending an action, provided that you have a hand free.

 

[xiphumor]

Well then, maybe what we need to do is not expand BZ, but add ranged maneuvers to the other combat maneuvers. Not all of them fit, I think, but Spirited Steed? Horse Archers are a historical staple! Razor’s Edge could work well for a sniper, and Mist and Shade could definitely employ some thrown dagger moves.

 

[lichmaster]

Well then, maybe what we need to do is not expand BZ, but add ranged maneuvers to the other combat maneuvers. Not all of them fit, I think, but Spirited Steed? Horse Archers are a historical staple! Razor’s Edge could work well for a sniper, and Mist and Shade could definitely employ some thrown dagger moves.

I think this could be an interesting and fruitful direction, with maybe an additional twist: Rare Maneuvers.

Same as we get rare spells that are unique in a sense or the other, it could cool be to have a grandmaster of the Adamant Mountain tradition to teach you an Axe Throwing maneuver of that tradition, known to only a few.

Or as you said, there could be a specific tribe of horsemen that excels in firing while riding with no penalties, and several other tricks.

Etc etc.

 

[xiphumor]

I think this could be an interesting and fruitful direction, with maybe an additional twist: Rare Maneuvers.

Same as we get rare spells that are unique in a sense or the other, it could cool be to have a grandmaster of the Adamant Mountain tradition to teach you an Axe Throwing maneuver of that tradition, known to only a few.

Or as you said, there could be a specific tribe of horsemen that excels in firing while riding with no penalties, and several other tricks.

Etc etc.

I’m not opposes to rare maneuvers, but I’d rather see expanded maneuvers first. Just adding more options to the game that anyone can access.

Now what could be fun would be Synergy maneuvers: maneuvers you only know if you know two particular traditions. Off the top of my head:

BZ + SS = Horse Archery
MG + UW = Assassin’s Guild
RC + TC = Run Wild
AM + TI = The Anvil