More on Race and ECL

[lottrbacchus]

This is a bit similar to rugbyman's post, but I wanted to make a new thread because I want opinions on how to go about this.

First, the problems we want to solve:
A) We are basically building an Underdark campaign, and many many creatures are very powerful as just the base creature. The Under-Dwarves and Gnomes and such all have gobs of powers. It seems to us that really only a few of any race would have all the powers.

B) We want to make as many races as possible playable from 1st level.


The solution we used first, as some folks said in rm's thread, is to use Racial Levels instead of ECL. You take a level of Drow, for instance, and you get more SR, 1 spell like ability, etc.
But we also added a HD, tends to unbalance uneverything. (Instead of a 1HD Drow with ECL3, you get a 3HD Drow at level 3.) So you have the gradual acquisiton of power, but end up being too strong.

If you don't give a HD, everyone would just want to keep the existing system where you get the goodies at the start and need 6000 exp to get your first class level (because then you would have all the powers to help you on your way).

Bloodlining it might be possible. But then a Drow with a Bloodline something else would be a nightmare.

Somone suggested having a limit on speed you can take the Racial Class levels. One quick thought is that it means any fully-powered whatever is going to automatically have loads of HDs!

(I hope any of that makes sense- I was having an ICQ argument/discussion with the other half of my team while writing and rewriting!)

Please discuss your thoughts and experiences in detail, thanks!

 

[Spatzimaus]

For quite a while now, I've been playing a variant system that uses Racial Levels (similar to the racial HD you're talking about), posted here. In our system, EVERY race has Racial Levels, even the humans (who only have one). In my experience, it works just fine; we've got everything from 1-HD races to 9-HD. There's just one thing to comment on:

But we also added a HD, tends to unbalance uneverything. (Instead of a 1HD Drow with ECL3, you get a 3HD Drow at level 3.) So you have the gradual acquisiton of power, but end up being too strong.

If they end up being too strong, then you didn't do it right. That's not a failing in the underlying system.

Generally speaking, a standard humanoid HD is worth about half a level. (See Soldarin's ECL system for a more detailed breakdown.) So, if you've got a race that was previously LA+2, it'd need four HD to balance it effectively, not three, or else you'd end up about half a level too strong at the end (which seems to be what you're stating).

 

[Arkhandus]

Just extend the number of racial levels to account for the addition of hit dice and associated benefits (I assume they're hit dice determined by race, like Humanoid racial hit dice, etc.).

Drow normally have a +2 Level Adjustment. Generally, a Humanoid hit die is similar to 1/2 a level (it's mildly better than a level of Commoner, but worse than a level of Expert or the like). So give Drow 4 racial levels they can choose to take; a 4-level "Drow" racial class that gives a Humanoid hit die at each level, with associated benefits (BAB, saves, and skills progressing as normal for Humanoid hit dice).

Distribute their racial traits among the four racial levels, taking care to factor in the standard benefits of each level (frex, 1st-level would not give any BAB since Humanoid hit dice don't give full BAB progression, so the 1st-level racial benefits could be a bit stronger than those of some other levels). And, as with Savage Species, determine which Drow racial traits are automatic (acquired by every Drow regardless of whether or not they take any racial levels). Frex, they might gain Spell Resistance 6 normally. Then, any Drow who takes at least 2 racial levels should get, say, an improvement to their racial SR, making it 9 + 1/2 their character level (keep in mind that Hit Dice count towards Character Level). Then any Drow who takes all 4 levels in their racial class gains another improvement, increasing their SR to equal 11 + their character level, rather than 9 + 1/2 their character level.

Or something like that.

 

[Nellisir]

Something I've considered, but have -not- playtested or even written out, is giving 1d4 hit points, poor bab, poor saves, and poor skills (2+int) for each LA. If a racial HD (usually d8. mediium BAB, one good save) is 1/2 a level, this should be somewhere around 1/4, at best, and might preserve your power level a little bit.

 

[Li Shenron]

B) We want to make as many races as possible playable from 1st level.

I think that racial levels are a good option, if you already have them in some books to cover all the races you want...

If you have to make some of them up yourself, try to keep it simple. Don't get a headache over perfect balance, which you will never get, and just remember their LA is "paid" quite quickly (assuming you use +2 or +3 LA races at most) so even some imbalances during racial levels won't last that long.

To make it simple:
- every trait/feature that normal races have an equivalent of, is granted at 1st racial level
- the extra goodies are granted in the following levels only (except penalties, which are granted at 1st)

An example with the Drow (LA +1). For example, someone plays a Drow Wizard. These are the Drow racial stuff:

+2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
* Darkvision out to 120 feet.
Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels.
* +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.
Spell-Like Abilities: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire.
* Weapon Proficiency: automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword.
* Automatic Languages and Bonus Languages
* Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.
* Favored Class: Wizard or Cleric

At 1st level, the character gets all the wizard's class features, plus those marked with *. He gets the rest at the second level.

Alternatively, you can break down the individual ones, like giving half the save bonuses, half the spell resistance, half of the proficiencies, and one only of the +2 ability bonuses in the 1st level, and the "other half" at level 2. The idea here is just to "split up" the bonuses during the levels, but unlike racial levels you can start with the 1st level in a class.

If you don't give a HD, everyone would just want to keep the existing system where you get the goodies at the start and need 6000 exp to get your first class level (because then you would have all the powers to help you on your way).

Well, AFAIK the existing system doesn't allow that.... it rather tells the DM not to allow a LA race unless the whole party starts at higher enough level.