D&D 5E More Organic Dungeons

[dave2008]

I've used "organic" dungeons for years now. Both 4e and 5e are forgiving enough that you can throw almost anything at the PCs and even if the PCs go where they shouldn't they can typically find away to get out of an unfavorable situation.

IMO, it is so much easier to create what makes sense for the environment/setting and not worry about the PCs.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

So what do you think? Do you design your settings to be organic, or level-appropriate? What are the challenges of creating or using more organic dungeons? What are some of the dangers? Do you think players would enjoy it, or does it breach the contract of player-DM trust?

I've always designed dungeons organically, I think because the first home-written adventure I was shown was organically designed, and I didn't even come across more game-y, tile-based or setpiece or similar types of design until later.

I don't think there's any real contradiction between organic and level-based, because what is organic is so flexible, and ultimately, you can simply change the dungeon so that it's still organic but doesn't demand the presence of the too-threatening being.

Usually it's pretty easy to signpost threatening beings even if they are present, and you can literally have NPCs warn PCs about them in a lot of situations - many threatening beings will be badass enough to be part of local myth and legend. There definitely needs to be more communication than with a standard "rooms full of monsters/traps" dungeon, but I think it tends to happen, well... organically and helps build the atmosphere of the dungeon.

In fact, this has always been one of my major bugbears with non-organic dungeons - they're often written in a way such that there's no way to anticipate what is coming, despite monsters having been there for decades or centuries in some cases. I'm sorry but 20 hobgoblins living in a barracks is going to have an impact on the local environment, and they're one of the neater enemy-types! Often you get the idea the dungeon was assembled in individual parts with little regard to the whole, or they just decided which monster goes in which room at the last moment. This absolutely includes professionally-developed and fairly recent dungeons too. 4E's official launch adventures were absolutely appalling for this, with very little consideration to the "ecology" of the dungeons, or why or how creatures would live there. A lot of basic questions like "how do they get food" or "where do they sleep?" were impossible to answer, and some bits of the design were actively contradictory to themselves even, because they were so poorly-considered (one even featured the classic "dragon in a not-very-big room" (I believe there was some dodgy figleaf of an excuse at least, but it wasn't great).

I don't think player trust is relevant unless you've somehow always used extremely artificial, video-game-y dungeons, and silently swap to a more organic/quasi-realist design. If you that is the case, it's probably worth flagging to them at the start of the dungeon, as an OOC/meta comment.

 

[BookTenTiger]

I've really enjoyed the discussion so far, thanks for all the contributions!

Thinking about this further, the way I've always designed dungeons has been through Encounters By Day. That is, I'll put 6 - 8 encounters varying from Easy to Deadly in a zone of the dungeon, then figure out which monsters or NPCs fit that description. I'll also make sure to have those encounters have the potential to be combat, exploration, or social.

I can't say my dungeons have been bad or not fun... But my suspicion is that I'm making environments that are too "safe" for the players. That is, I'm doing the work they should be! I think I want the players - and the characters - figuring out if they can push further, if they should retreat, if this threat is manageable, rather than the dungeon design deciding that for them.

Anyways, I'll be continuing to read these responses!

 

[MNblockhead]

To me the desire for more organic dungeons feels at odds with encounters being at appropriate CR. But worse, it takes away the element of danger, fear, and caution that I like in my games. I like dungeons where an incautious, un-scouted, wrong turn can lead to the party in way over their heads.

I also like when a party encounters an unbeatable evil early in their careers which they have to run away from and avoid, and it becomes this thing in background, still causing problems, that they can't do much about. Then one day they can. It is very satisfying when you finally defeat the once unbeatable foe. Perfectly balanced encounters all the time is weak sauce for me.

 

[Reynard]

To me the desire for more organic dungeons feels at odds with encounters being at appropriate CR. But worse, it takes away the element of danger, fear, and caution that I like in my games. I like dungeons where an incautious, un-scouted, wrong turn can lead to the party in way over their heads.

These two statements seem contradictory, unless I am misunderstanding.

 

[Tonguez]

I like to use my random encounters table to foreshadow bigger threats eg if the current adventure involves goblins, I might have a couple of random encounters like a hole in newly disturbed ground where something burrowed through or maybe three gutted goblin carcasses hanging from a tree with their ankles tied together - they show theres something more than goblins around, which the PCs may never meet but which are still an option

 

[Voadam]

I am not sure how this differs from sandbox style of play.

There is stuff out there, say the Arachnomancer forest with the spider's underground tunnel lair. It has stuff but it is mostly not determined by the party, it is there for the party to explore and tackle or not and might be more dangerous for them than their level would generally dictate in a planned encounter designed for their level.

5e's bound accuracy and generous dying rules means you can do a lot of stuff with both higher and lower CR stuff than most editions and have it work decently.

Also random encounters that are not level based can work.

I remember rolling a green dragon in a 1e forest random encounter roll and the two moderately levelled wild elf assassin brother PCs decided hiding as it flew overhead was the best choice of actions and then heading a different direction.

Part of it is playstyle, some want to face big challenges they come across, not run away from them. their character concept is charge in for the fun of the fight, so be aware of that.

 

[Voadam]

Right now, I want you to make all the organic dungeon jokes you can think of. Um... I'd love to have organic dungeons, but they're more expensive than standard dungeons! Um... organic dungeons... what's next, cage-free dungeons? Um... I prefer my dungeons organic and non-GMO!

I know Eyes of the Stone Thief is free range, but is it organic?

Is this elven dungeon vegan?

My warforged artificer is organic dungeon intolerant.

Okay, got it out of your system?

No.

 

[Mind of tempest]

okay, so I should make a living dungeon that was grown organically correct?

 

[Quickleaf]

I've really enjoyed the discussion so far, thanks for all the contributions!

Thinking about this further, the way I've always designed dungeons has been through Encounters By Day. That is, I'll put 6 - 8 encounters varying from Easy to Deadly in a zone of the dungeon, then figure out which monsters or NPCs fit that description. I'll also make sure to have those encounters have the potential to be combat, exploration, or social.

I can't say my dungeons have been bad or not fun... But my suspicion is that I'm making environments that are too "safe" for the players. That is, I'm doing the work they should be! I think I want the players - and the characters - figuring out if they can push further, if they should retreat, if this threat is manageable, rather than the dungeon design deciding that for them.

Anyways, I'll be continuing to read these responses!

One of the dungeons I ran for my 3rd level four-person group a few months back was the Ossuary of Hept-Na – the burial place of the dozens of clones of a long-missing necromancer (he plays a role in the setting similar to famous D&D named wizards like Bigby or Otiluke), occupied by death cultists being duped by a demon.

We're running a structured sandbox, so this particular dungeon was designed with 3rd-6th level PCs in mind. They happened to venture into it pretty early and through some poor luck triggered the full alert of the cultists in the dungeon. It became something like an intense 20-round combat across two sessions.

If I were designing in a "paint by numbers" approach using the Adventuring Day XP Budget in the DMG, I would have put no more than 4,800 adjusted XP worth of challenges in their path. Instead, I put over twice that amount.

However, my mentality was much more about keeping it organic, and then as an afterthought tracking the maths to make sure it was in the rough ballpark (3rd-6th level) range I had in mind.

One way this was organic is that there were several elements I didn't know how they would play out until the players interacted with them:

• Half the cultists were inside the dungeon, and half were returning on camel-back with a captive. PCs were caught in a two-front fight due to some poor luck, but the persevered, and got some useful info from the rescued captive.
• The main evil worshipped by the cult – a fledgling nabassu – was impersonating their revered leader Hept-Na, feigning that he'd been transformed. If it devoured enough souls, PCs, sacrifices, or cultists, it would become a terrifying CR 15 nabassu.
• There was a ghoul named Shat who – as a break between the intense combat – acted as a creepily courteous butler, buying time for the fledgling nabassu to heal. The PCs interacted only a little with Shat and killed him quickly, which worked to their advantage.
• There was a cultist imprisoned in a cage for getting kinky with zombies. My players made an alliance with him and he helped in the battle (he had a special power to cast shadow step on an ally within 5 feet), but that interaction could have gone a number of directions.
• A section (Area 8) of the dungeon had magen and a nasty ash/poison gas trap lying dormant, but the PCs happened to trigger it.
• The lower level (Area 10) had a necrophidius* (bone snake construct) that could be negotiated with or could present a lethal threat to the depleted party. The PCs encountered the necrophidius at the very end, once the poison gas trap was triggered and filling the dungeon, and its transfixing gaze nearly got a PC killed.

Breakdown of challenges/monsters in each area...

1. – (the party encountered 10 cultists on camelback wielding homebrew lassos, and a few more cultists from inside)
2. –
3. Akeroch the fledgling nabassu* (CR 5), 10 cultists led by the death cult fanatic* (CR 2) Takarat, and 2 ghouls gather here nightly to perform sacrificial rituals
4. –
5. death cult fanatic* (CR 2, imprisoned, the PCs made him into an ally)
6. –
7. 3 bone crabs (CR 1/2)
8. 2 hypnos magen, quasit Zazhifer, urn spell-trapped with increased range choke cloud of Hept-Na (homebrew 4th level spell)
9. 3 bone crabs (CR 1/2)
10. Xenoth the necrophidius* (CR 3)