D&D 5E More 'realistic' Carrion Crawler poison

[coolAlias]

One thing that always struck me as odd is the description of Carrion Crawlers as using their poison to paralyze their prey and then drag them away to eat at their leisure, and the poison allowing a save each turn to end its effect.

So here's my take on the Carrion Crawler that I feel gives it enough of a boost to fulfill its ecological niche, hopefully without making it too much more challenging. Curious to hear what other people think.

Tentacle: +8 to hit, reach 10 ft, no direct damage but inflicts poison (see below).

Poison: Target must succeed on a DC 13 Consitution saving throw or become poisoned for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the poison on itself if successful. While poisoned, the target is paralyzed and suffers 4 (1d4+2) poison damage at the start of each of its turns. If reduced to 0 hit points while affected by this poison, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour with no further saves (same as Giant Centipede poison), even if it regains hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.

EDIT: Potential changes brought up in the discussion will be added below.

1. Revert to original MM tentacle attack, i.e. poison damage applies when struck (no save) with no ongoing poison damage; retain increased paralysis effect as above

2. a. Use Giant Centipede wording for paralysis, requiring the poison damage to reduce the character to 0 hp in order to trigger the paralysis rather than just dropping to 0 hp by any means

2. b. As 2a, but allow any attack by the Carrion Crawler's to trigger paralysis if it drops a character affected by its poison to 0 hp

I've decided to use 1 + 2a. As such, the Monster Manual entry remains unchanged except for appending one line to the Tentacle attack's description: "If the target is reduced to 0 hit points by any carrion crawler's tentacle or bite attack while affected by this poison, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way."

 

[coolAlias]

[MENTION=7011547]Waltershurl[/MENTION], I realize you're probably a bot, but can you please stop spamming my thread?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Poison: Target must succeed on a DC 13 Consitution saving throw or become poisoned for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the poison on itself if successful. While poisoned, the target is paralyzed and suffers 4 (1d4+2) poison damage at the start of each of its turns. If reduced to 0 hit points while affected by this poison, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour with no further saves (same as Giant Centipede poison), even if it regains hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.

Keep in mind that Poisoned is a named condition in 5e.
You might want to do the poison damage up-front, and then apply the save (either vs Paralyzed or Poisoned condition, either could work), with Paralysis the ultimate effect of being reduced to 0 by the poison damage (even if other damage was inflicted prior).

 

[Sacrosanct]

One thing that always struck me as odd is the description of Carrion Crawlers as using their poison to paralyze their prey and then drag them away to eat at their leisure, and the poison allowing a save each turn to end its effect.

So here's my take on the Carrion Crawler that I feel gives it enough of a boost to fulfill its ecological niche, hopefully without making it too much more challenging. Curious to hear what other people think.

Multiattack: The carrion crawler makes either two attacks with its tentacles or one with its bite.

Tentacle: +8 to hit, reach 10 ft, no direct damage but inflicts poison (see below).

Poison: Target must succeed on a DC 13 Consitution saving throw or become poisoned for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the poison on itself if successful. While poisoned, the target is paralyzed and suffers 4 (1d4+2) poison damage at the start of each of its turns. If reduced to 0 hit points while affected by this poison, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour with no further saves (same as Giant Centipede poison), even if it regains hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.

That's a bit better. It never sat well with me either, because if you can keep trying to save, the creature has no way it can bring it back to its lair to eat later. You're bound to make your save eventually, long before that happens. Or an alternate way is to reduce the time to only one save attempt per hour or something, instead of once per turn.

 

[coolAlias]

Keep in mind that Poisoned is a named condition in 5e.
You might want to do the poison damage up-front, and then apply the save (either vs Paralyzed or Poisoned condition, either could work), with Paralysis the ultimate effect of being reduced to 0 by the poison damage (even if other damage was inflicted prior).

Yes, it's intended to apply both the poisoned and paralyzed conditions, which is how the crawler's poison works already.

Good point on the damage, though. I think doing it your way rather than as an ongoing damage effect is more in line with 5e standards while still allowing the enhanced paralysis effect to do its thing.

Unlike the Giant Centipede's poison description, I decided any damage reducing the creature to 0 hp while affected by the poison results in paralysis, not just damage from the poison. I'm not sure why they went that route as it seems overly complex to me compared to the stated design goals of 5e.

 

[coolAlias]

That's a bit better. It never sat well with me either, because if you can keep trying to save, the creature has no way it can bring it back to its lair to eat later. You're bound to make your save eventually, long before that happens. Or an alternate way is to reduce the time to only one save attempt per hour or something, instead of once per turn.

I think once per hour is too punishing - a save per turn seems to be the standard for negative conditions in 5e, but the caveat that once reduced to 0 hp there are no additional saves for one hour allows the carrion crawlers to do what their text claims they do.

It's not perfect since dropping a PC to 0 hp is not usually that easy, but a carrion crawler is also only CR 2, so... I think it fits the flavor while making them just a tad bit scarier to low level PCs, which is all I'm going for.

 

[coolAlias]

[MENTION=8900]Tony[/MENTION]Vargas - I just remembered why I originally had the poison damage per turn: it allows the carrion crawler to do hit and run tactics.

Basically, a crawler would try to get in one or two hits, then run off and come back later hoping that it managed to score a 'kill.'

I felt like this really made them feel like opportunistic scavengers instead of the typical stand-and-fight type of monster.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Unlike the Giant Centipede's poison description, I decided any damage reducing the creature to 0 hp while affected by the poison results in paralysis, not just damage from the poison. I'm not sure why they went that route as it seems overly complex to me compared to the stated design goals of 5e.

Probably to avoid anyone getting the idea that you'd have two "hit point tracks" one for the poison, one for 'real damage,' as that could get complicated.

I like the idea of the hit that actually drops you determining the effect. If you got poisoned a lot and were low on hps, then got stabbed, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for you to be paralyzed rather than killed. Ditto if you're worn down in a duel, but finished by a paralyzing agent, you shouldn't just drop dead, you should be paralyzed.

It just makes sense given the way hps avoid any death spiral, they're preventing you from taking the full brunt of whatever fails to drop you to 0, once you're 0, the full, intended, effect of that attack finally happens, whether that's finally putting a sword through you or finally injecting a full dose of poison.

JMHO.

 

[coolAlias]

Probably to avoid anyone getting the idea that you'd have two "hit point tracks" one for the poison, one for 'real damage,' as that could get complicated.

I like the idea of the hit that actually drops you determining the effect. If you got poisoned a lot and were low on hps, then got stabbed, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for you to be paralyzed rather than killed. Ditto if you're worn down in a duel, but finished by a paralyzing agent, you shouldn't just drop dead, you should be paralyzed.

It just makes sense given the way hps avoid any death spiral, they're preventing you from taking the full brunt of whatever fails to drop you to 0, once you're 0, the full, intended, effect of that attack finally happens, whether that's finally putting a sword through you or finally injecting a full dose of poison.

JMHO.

I can see the logic in that, especially the way the Giant Centipede's poison is worded and the amount of damage it does.

The Carrion Crawler as it appears in the MM would have a really hard time dropping something with poison damage - much more likely it'd take someone down with an auto-crit bite attack while they were temporarily paralyzed.

If the intent is to have them drag still-living prey back to their lair, I think it makes more sense to allow the bite attack to also drop them to stable but paralyzed if reduced to 0 hp. This also in a way makes them *less* deadly to lower level PCs.

Still, you raise an interesting perspective. Thanks!

 

[Tony Vargas]

I can see the logic in that, especially the way the Giant Centipede's poison is worded and the amount of damage it does.

It also occurs to me that, while, the classic 1e MM Giant Centipede just plain had poison, with a save bonus, there was a note, either under the monster or in the DMG about the DM being free to rule that weak poisons like that didn't kill if you failed the save, only made you 'sick' or something.
The 5e version may well have been a clallback to that.

If the intent is to have them drag still-living prey back to their lair, I think it makes more sense to allow the bite attack to also drop them to stable but paralyzed if reduced to 0 hp. This also in a way makes them *less* deadly to lower level PCs.

Sure. Maybe the bite's a tad poisonous too?

BTW, I think it's interesting they drag you away to 'eat later,' I thought I remembered them laying eggs on their victims - making them fantasy parasitoids.