MoTW: Do Frenzy and Rage Stack?

[Brisk-sg]

Hello All,

One of my player's character died a horrible, not easy to resurrect death last session; his character was dropped in single combat by a large Quaggoth, the Thonot of the tribe, while the forty of the tribes warriors looked on. The character was then hurled into the Blade Barrier the priest erected. The character's innards were then mixed with that of the fourteen or so Quaggoth who tried to charge through the Barrier.

Well, that is beside the point. He created a new character instead of attempting to have him resurrected. The new character is where I am having some rules difficulties. The character is as follows:

Chaotic-Good Shield Dwarf; Fighter 1 / Barbarian 6 / Frenzied Berserker 1
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 10, Chr 10
Rage 2/day, Frenzy 1/day

I have two questions concerning Frenzy:

1) This question is concerning using both Rage & Frenzy. He is using both Rage & Frenzy at the same time. He says they stack because neither lists a type and neither says you cannot do it (nor does it say anywhere that you can both Rage & Frenzy at the same time).

When using both Rage & Frenzy he gets a total of +10 to Strength, +4 to Con, +2 to Will Saves (which helps him end the Frenzy voluntarily by the way), but takes a total of -6 to AC and 2 points subdual per round.

Can Rage & Frenzy be used at the same time, and do they stack?

2) The second question is concerning 3.5 rules and the extra attack provided by Frenzy. Masters of the Wild states "While frenzied, she gains a +6 bonus to Strength and a single extra attack each round at her highest attack bonus. (This latter effect is not cumulative with haste.)". Does this mean that the character gets an extra attack regardless of what other actions he takes, or should I rule that it is like the 3.5 version of haste where the extra attack only occurs during a full attack action.

The reason this is a concern, is the player will likely use this to do things such as making a double-move and then attacking, ect. In this session he used it with a charge action.



Thank for any help you can provide.
- Josh

 

[Asmo]

Please consider the option not to allow the Frenzied Berserker into your game.
I recently played a game with a maxed-out FB and it was a nightmare. Not fun at all,lot of frustrated players. The only thing that saved the party from total wipe-out was my Anti-Life Shell.
Asmo

 

[Brisk-sg]

Please consider the option not to allow the Frenzied Berserker into your game.
I recently played a game with a maxed-out FB and it was a nightmare. Not fun at all,lot of frustrated players. The only thing that saved the party from total wipe-out was my Anti-Life Shell.
Asmo

If I had known what the class was at the time he was making it I would have done just that (I do that all too much with the player in question), but at the time I was running a battle with over 45 NPC combatents agains the PCs so I didn't get a chance to really review the character before letting him in. I felt somewhat sorry for the player as the character who died was new, only the third session he was in, and he died in the 1st half an hour of the game.

 

[kreynolds]

Can Rage & Frenzy be used at the same time, and do they stack?

Yes and yes. This isn't as bad as you think anyway. IME, about half the time someone uses both and its a really nasty fight, they drop dead the instant they come out of it anyway.

The second question is concerning 3.5 rules and the extra attack provided by Frenzy. Masters of the Wild states "While frenzied, she gains a +6 bonus to Strength and a single extra attack each round at her highest attack bonus. (This latter effect is not cumulative with haste.)". Does this mean that the character gets an extra attack regardless of what other actions he takes, or should I rule that it is like the 3.5 version of haste where the extra attack only occurs during a full attack action.

I'd definately suggest that you limit the extra attack just like haste, i.e. you can only make an extra attack when you make a full attack.

 

[Darklone]

Have AU? Rapid Strike is a nice feat... restricting the FBs extra attack in that way would be an idea.

 

[Brisk-sg]

Please consider the option not to allow the Frenzied Berserker into your game.
I recently played a game with a maxed-out FB and it was a nightmare. Not fun at all,lot of frustrated players. The only thing that saved the party from total wipe-out was my Anti-Life Shell.
Asmo

Well the player has decided to retire the character and make another one (thankfully).

 

[Darklone]

Red half-dragon troll now ?

 

[Brisk-sg]

Red half-dragon troll now ?

*Chuckle* No... Dwarven Big-Game hunter. He is taking Deepwood sniper Prestige class.

 

[LifebaneSoulshadow]

Frenzied Berz PrC

Although initially I as a DM also felt it was an overpowered PrC, having seen it in play 2x now in 2 different campaigns I disagree. It is overpowered if the DM doesnt enforce the negative aspects of frenzy.

(And yes rage stacks with frenzy)

Remember the PrC states 'any' damage (from any source) triggers the PC to have to make the Will save or go into a frenzy. (my players forays into a nasty undead temple with stat draining undead, really worked the frenzied berzerker over as he wasnt triggering frenzy)

Imagine an arrow trap gets triggered and hits the frenzied berzerker. He takes damage, all around him are his groupmates. Oh-oh. Will Save, pray he makes it.

Imagine said PC is in an inn or in a town and a fight or riot breaks out. Someone hits him over the head with a broken bottle or chair. How many NPCs and townsfolk would he take out before frenzy wore off? The PC in my game is worried about going in towns at all, for fear he'll lose control and start killing innocents.

What happens when the foes are dead and Mr. frenzied berzerker is still frenzied? Oh my....his fellow adventuring companions look like the bad guys and he turns on them. Yes there are ways they can protect against him, but still there are many possibilities to bring the negative aspects of this PrC into play to balance out it's obvious power.

Lifebane Soulshadow

All in all, provided you dont let the character munchkin up in any other ways the PrC alone is fine (at least in my experience), it's powerful, certainly, but not game breaking.

 

[3d6]

1) This question is concerning using both Rage & Frenzy. He is using both Rage & Frenzy at the same time. He says they stack because neither lists a type and neither says you cannot do it (nor does it say anywhere that you can both Rage & Frenzy at the same time).

When using both Rage & Frenzy he gets a total of +10 to Strength, +4 to Con, +2 to Will Saves (which helps him end the Frenzy voluntarily by the way), but takes a total of -6 to AC and 2 points subdual per round.

Can Rage & Frenzy be used at the same time, and do they stack?

Masters of the Wild, page 39:

The effects of frenzy stack with those from rage.

2) The second question is concerning 3.5 rules and the extra attack provided by Frenzy. Masters of the Wild states "While frenzied, she gains a +6 bonus to Strength and a single extra attack each round at her highest attack bonus. (This latter effect is not cumulative with haste.)". Does this mean that the character gets an extra attack regardless of what other actions he takes, or should I rule that it is like the 3.5 version of haste where the extra attack only occurs during a full attack action.

From the SRD:

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

In short, yes, rage and frenzy stack, and he must use the full attack action to get his extra attacks.