Mounted combat KD question

[OnlineDM]

I believe it was mentioned in a Warden Class Acts article published in Dragon that you could use Nature's Wrath in the middle of your movement action if you so chose.

Personally, I know that I heard it an episode of WotC's D&D podcast. I believe it was Mike Mearls who said this.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just to note, this is actually how the warden's marking mechanic works.

Nature's Wrath: Once during each of your turns, you can mark each adjacent enemy as a free action. This mark lasts until the end of your next turn. In addition, you gain the warden’s fury and warden’s grasp powers. You can use these powers against enemies to prevent them from harming those you protect.

I believe it was mentioned in a Warden Class Acts article published in Dragon that you could use Nature's Wrath in the middle of your movement action if you so chose.

Thanks. I have a Warden PC in my PBP game, but since it's not my PC, I wasn't quite sure how that worked.

I dislike the concept of hidden rules like this (in Dragon articles). A free action is no different than any other action. It occurs when the player takes it, but not within another action unless the free action itself states that it is part of another action.

Just because one free action can occur within the confines of another action doesn't mean that they all can do so.

If WotC wants this to be the rule, they should put it in the errata and in the compendium. RAW doesn't technically allow for it. For example, one cannot take an Action Point action (doing so is a free action) in the middle of movement of a Move action or in the middle of a Charge, and then continue moving. The same should be true for Nature's Wrath unless the errata states otherwise.

Well, Yensurros' attacks are similarly unclear, but have no sort of free-action allowance so I'd only let them resolve similarly to the Fighter's Dual Strike, rather than the Ranger's Twin Strike. That is to say, roll one attack roll, and apply damage and other effects before then making the secondary attack, rather than making both attacks and then applying both effects. So no push 4 if the same target is hit twice.

Technically, the Yensurro doesn't have to push with the first attack and then could push with the second, but the problem with that is that the DM doesn't know if the second attack is going to hit or not unless he rolls both to hit dice at the same time (which is kind of cheating). The push has to be given up in order to get the second attack in which is a lame design. I agree with no push 4.

 

[Karmic_vegeance]

For example, one cannot take an Action Point action (doing so is a free action) in the middle of movement of a Move action or in the middle of a Charge, and then continue moving.

This isn't actually what happens when you spend an action point - spending the action point is a free action, but the only effect of spending an action point is gaining an extra action on your turn - you don't immediately take the extra action. So the reason you can't make that standard action gained via action point in the middle of your charge is because it is in fact, a standard action.

SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION

During your turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.

Gain an extra action: You gain an extra action this turn. You decide if the action is a standard action, a move action, or a minor action.

This benefits paragon path benefits like the Wrathbearer's Savage Action, which reads:

Savage Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and add 1[W] extra damage to damage rolls with weapon attacks until the end of your next turn.

You are able to spend a free action to spend the action point, and then gain the paragon path's benefit for spending it on both standard action attacks you make this turn, if you so choose.

 

[KarinsDad]

So the reason you can't make that standard action gained via action point in the middle of your charge is because it is in fact, a standard action.

Precisely (yeah, I worded that wrong). One action cannot be performed within another unless explicitly called out that it can do so. There is no specific RAW reason for this except for the "order of actions" (i.e. they can be taken in any order) which implies separate actions, but doesn't explicitly state it. Free actions are not an exception to this.

You are able to spend a free action to spend the action point, and then gain the paragon path's benefit for spending it on both standard action attacks you make this turn, if you so choose.

No doubt. I still wouldn't allow a PC to spend an action point mid-other action though.

For example, I wouldn't allow a PC with Savage Action to hit with a Standard attack action and then declare spending an action point pre-rolling damage to guarantee that the first hit gets the extra damage of Savage Action. He has to declare that is he going to use an Action Point before using the first Standard action attack to gain the bonus damage since that first attack might miss.

 

[Karmic_vegeance]

For what it's worth, I found the exact quote from the Warden Essentials article:

Nature’s Wrath
As a warden, you use Nature’s Wrath to mark foes. Here are the things you should know about this fundamental class feature:
✦ It’s a free action. One thing this means is that you can use Nature’s Wrath at any point in your turn, including midway through another action such as a move or a charge....

So the article didn't just make the claim that this worked for Nature's Wrath, but for any free action on your turn. Take from that what you will, I stole that quote from

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/275492-can-free-actions-used-interrupts.html

which seems to have 7 more pages of argument on this topic I don't have time to peruse at the moment.

 

[KarinsDad]

So the article didn't just make the claim that this worked for Nature's Wrath, but for any free action on your turn. Take from that what you will, I stole that quote from

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/275492-can-free-actions-used-interrupts.html

which seems to have 7 more pages of argument on this topic I don't have time to peruse at the moment.

I have to say that I agree with keterys in that thread.

A free action is an action. Non-immediate interrupt actions do not occur in the middle of other actions unless the text of the action states that it does.

Otherwise, anyone could a Standard Action in the middle of their Movement Action and then continue moving.

There is absolutely nothing in RAW that states that all free actions are an exception to this or that free actions do not follow the standard action rules for other rules (e.g. like the player decides the order of the actions). Just because some free actions can do so (because their text states that they can) does not mean that all free actions can do so.

To me, this is an example of some writers at WotC assuming that since some free actions have this ability that this is the definition of free actions. It's not.

Note: I don't have my Rules Compendium at the moment, so I cannot check it. My interpretation here is based on the PHB and the errata.