Multi classing Objections: Rules vs. Fluff?


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ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Not to derail your response, but there is indeed a rule that allows the DM to choose to allow feats and multiclassing in 5e unless I am very much mistaken.

I know there is. But its an optional rule. And my argument is not just against feats but specific feats, muliticlasses, classes, races, and interactions between them. I don't feel like having these as optional rules derails my argument at all. It in fact supports my point because desire by the GM to allow as much choice as possible while .... not really wanting anyone to ever multi-class.If My GM said "no mulit-classing" Then it would resolve many of his issues with player builds but he was feel like the bad guy for limiting players. He doesn't want to restrict players and be the bad guy so he allows it but then he gets annoyed and passive aggressively targets those player and tries to push them away from it with fluff "roleplay regulations" creating case by case justifications when ever possible. I have seen a lot of GM jaded talking on the forums starting from a similar approach who attack anyone who has not problem with these using fluff and many who eventually removed feats and multi-classing and will constantly bring it up saying its "broken" or not implemented well by developers or that players can't handle it, but really its just something they never liked and want to blame it on everyone else so its not their fault when they remove it.

Rephrase of what I am saying:

GM find something they have an issue with but instead of just telling players "no" when they find it they try to avoid conflict and say its fine, then it continues to to annoying to them so they start finding reasons to attack it or justify its removal on a case by case basis. Seeing it as a continual problem they start blaming "faults in game design" and or player for being "powergamers" or "munchins" or "ignoring fluff". Makes them Jaded and they become adamantly out spoken against these "problems" attacking anyone who uses or likes to use these features. I am not saying the game is perfect or that GMs intend to go down that road. Its more of a side effect, of a GM trying to be "nice" but really hating it. You can usually spot when its a GM problem when only the GM has a problem with it. For example, I got accused of power gaming by looking items that made me good at my role in the group, I am not actually that great at my role because I make bad dice roles regularly. I took alert as a feat and picked up eyes of the eagle from a magic item dealer we found. Now we have a tank whose role is to hold the line and mash stuff. He wanted magical armor, a magical weapon, and took the heavy armor master to do his job. The GM is not made because I am the most powerful player or that I am even good at my role in the group, no my GM is made because he wanted to ambush and kill my character for being a warlock and because I was not surprised he did not get the ambush and because I have high initiative and advantage on my perception I got away fine....So the GM says I am powergaming, EVEN though I approved the feat before taking it then found and bought Eyes of the eagle because he allowed it and rolled on random chance table. .... But he didn't read the feat... or the item... or consider that they would have some effect on game play. The same goes for multi-classing. The only way for GM to avoid "surprises" is to look at character sheets and approve changes like mulit-classes and feats. Many GMs don't have the time or want to take the time to do this then blame players for something only the GM has an issue with.

Maybe the GM didn't know he had a problem with a Warlock Cleric, then the first short rest the warlock-cleric burns both pact slots to heal party members knowing they will recharge on the short rest.... and suddenly.... the GM is saying players can't be warlock/clerics because they are too tainted by magic to be heard by their deity.... or they could just tell the player.... "look, I didn't realize your could and would heal 10d8 damage every short rest and that is really going to mess with my encounter planning. I will likely not allow this muti-class in the future because it makes things hard for me but for now ... since your already playing your character... lets say you can't use pact slots for healing spells even though your an ArchFey patron Warlock and a Nature Domain Cleric... because I think this really removes the danger of multiple encounters when you have a resource like this to let you recover"
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I know there is. But its an optional rule. And my argument is not just against feats but specific feats, muliticlasses, classes, races, and interactions between them. I don't feel like having these as optional rules derails my argument at all. It in fact supports my point because desire by the GM to allow as much choice as possible while .... not really wanting anyone to ever multi-class.If My GM said "no mulit-classing" Then it would resolve many of his issues with player builds but he was feel like the bad guy for limiting players. He doesn't want to restrict players and be the bad guy so he allows it but then he gets annoyed and passive aggressively targets those player and tries to push them away from it with fluff "roleplay regulations" creating case by case justifications when ever possible. I have seen a lot of GM jaded talking on the forums starting from a similar approach who attack anyone who has not problem with these using fluff and many who eventually removed feats and multi-classing and will constantly bring it up saying its "broken" or not implemented well by developers or that players can't handle it, but really its just something they never liked and want to blame it on everyone else so its not their fault when they remove it.

Rephrase of what I am saying:

GM find something they have an issue with but instead of just telling players "no" when they find it they try to avoid conflict and say its fine, then it continues to to annoying to them so they start finding reasons to attack it or justify its removal on a case by case basis. Seeing it as a continual problem they start blaming "faults in game design" and or player for being "powergamers" or "munchins" or "ignoring fluff". Makes them Jaded and they become adamantly out spoken against these "problems" attacking anyone who uses or likes to use these features. I am not saying the game is perfect or that GMs intend to go down that road. Its more of a side effect, of a GM trying to be "nice" but really hating it. You can usually spot when its a GM problem when only the GM has a problem with it. For example, I got accused of power gaming by looking items that made me good at my role in the group, I am not actually that great at my role because I make bad dice roles regularly. I took alert as a feat and picked up eyes of the eagle from a magic item dealer we found. Now we have a tank whose role is to hold the line and mash stuff. He wanted magical armor, a magical weapon, and took the heavy armor master to do his job. The GM is not made because I am the most powerful player or that I am even good at my role in the group, no my GM is made because he wanted to ambush and kill my character for being a warlock and because I was not surprised he did not get the ambush and because I have high initiative and advantage on my perception I got away fine....So the GM says I am powergaming, EVEN though I approved the feat before taking it then found and bought Eyes of the eagle because he allowed it and rolled on random chance table. .... But he didn't read the feat... or the item... or consider that they would have some effect on game play. The same goes for multi-classing. The only way for GM to avoid "surprises" is to look at character sheets and approve changes like mulit-classes and feats. Many GMs don't have the time or want to take the time to do this then blame players for something only the GM has an issue with.

I wouldn't know, I'm quite laissez faire as a DM, but I've been in tables where the DM singled out on my character, for being a witch of sorts, so I can empathize.
Maybe the GM didn't know he had a problem with a Warlock Cleric, then the first short rest the warlock-cleric burns both pact slots to heal party members knowing they will recharge on the short rest.... and suddenly.... the GM is saying players can't be warlock/clerics because they are too tainted by magic to be heard by their deity.... or they could just tell the player.... "look, I didn't realize your could and would heal 10d8 damage every short rest and that is really going to mess with my encounter planning. I will likely not allow this muti-class in the future because it makes things hard for me but for now ... since your already playing your character... lets say you can't use pact slots for healing spells even though your an ArchFey patron Warlock and a Nature Domain Cleric... because I think this really removes the danger of multiple encounters when you have a resource like this to let you recover"
But, then you can also do that with a Warlock/Bard, Warlock/Druid, Warlock/Paladin or Warlock/Sorcerer, in fact a single-classed Celestial Warlock can do that too. I think your DM has a thing against Warlocks?
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
I wouldn't know, I'm quite laissez faire as a DM, but I've been in tables where the DM singled out on my character, for being a witch of sorts, so I can empathize.

But, then you can also do that with a Warlock/Bard, Warlock/Druid, Warlock/Paladin or Warlock/Sorcerer, in fact a single-classed Celestial Warlock can do that too. I think your DM has a thing against Warlocks?

He does, feel that they are evil demon worshipers. He knows that depends on the subclass but he can't get that out of his head. We just didn't know for several sessions until after I was invested in the character. So again, my point in general is this could be... say paladins for another GM... or ...Gnomes with rapiers and or great swords for another... (I actually don't like rapiers in D&D myself, but not enough to stop a player from using it, just enough I always take a short-sword in its place.) The Warlock cleric or paladin is just more of the same as far as I can see. Don't get me wrong their are optimizing power gamer players too but I find while the game is not perfect its adaptable enough that most issues that last and keep coming up come from the behavior of people at the table. That's my opinion anyway.
 

Oofta

Legend
He does, feel that they are evil demon worshipers. He knows that depends on the subclass but he can't get that out of his head. We just didn't know for several sessions until after I was invested in the character. So again, my point in general is this could be... say paladins for another GM... or ...Gnomes with rapiers and or great swords for another... (I actually don't like rapiers in D&D myself, but not enough to stop a player from using it, just enough I always take a short-sword in its place.) The Warlock cleric or paladin is just more of the same as far as I can see. Don't get me wrong their are optimizing power gamer players too but I find while the game is not perfect its adaptable enough that most issues that last and keep coming up come from the behavior of people at the table. That's my opinion anyway.

Which is all a reminder that some things should be discussed during a session 0. For example, in my campaign most warlock patrons are indeed evil simply because of the nature of possible power sources. There are a few (primarily fey/Sidhe) that are not, but there will always be a price to pay for gaining power because making a deal with the Sidhe always comes with a price. Hopefully that price if a fun part of role playing a warlock. For that matter clerics are sometimes guided by their deities, it's just that patrons are generally more personal.

But that's all part of my "intro" document and a reminder that you should clear general outlines of a character with your DMG.
 

Which is all a reminder that some things should be discussed during a session 0. For example, in my campaign most warlock patrons are indeed evil simply because of the nature of possible power sources. There are a few (primarily fey/Sidhe) that are not, but there will always be a price to pay for gaining power because making a deal with the Sidhe always comes with a price. Hopefully that price if a fun part of role playing a warlock. For that matter clerics are sometimes guided by their deities, it's just that patrons are generally more personal.

But that's all part of my "intro" document and a reminder that you should clear general outlines of a character with your DMG.
Yeah, I feel like it's kind of the point of the warlock to traffic with entities that are, while not necessarily evil, certainly dangerous and untrustworthy. Or at the very least, to wield magic that is "dark" or "edgy" in some way. If a player is not having fun playing out the stories this conflict generates, I'd ask them if warlock is really the type of character they want to play. Just like if they were a paladin but getting fed up with having to uphold a code, or a druid but getting tired of all this tree-hugging nonsense.
 

QuietBrowser

First Post
I loved 4th Edition most because it explicitly stated that fluff is malleable: let the players' and dungeon masters' imagination soar: create your own worlds, characters and backstories.

As a dungeon master in 5th Edition, I allow my players the same leeway. They are limited to the mechanics of the rules; but they can change the appearance, background, names, etc to fit their own concepts.
I just had to mention, even if it might have been mentioned earlier; 4th edition also made the Paladin/Warlock perfectly believable; Paladins are Divine Warriors, they're champions of deities, and not all deities are good. A champion of a particularly dark or alien god (and there was an Unearthed Arcana in Dragon #398 on introducing more pulp-styled evil/apathetic/dark deities to your game, called "Ignorance is Blessed") could well combine paladin and warlock powers, representing their particular deity and their bond.

Plus, the Nerath/Nentir Vale setting really made Paladin/Warlocks believable with the Crimson Legion: a Tiefling warrior tradition of multiclassed Paladins of Asmodeus/Infernal Warlocks who, in the modern era, now seek Asmodeus' downfall, so they combine Paladin training & devotion to Good deities with pacts to rebellious devils who seek to overthrow Asmodeus, serving as go-betweens for these reluctant allies-of-circumstance, which really reinforces the "there are no neat baskets" aspect of the 4e cosmology. That element of realpolitik, which also includes things like a devilish embassy on Herath, the realm of Pelor/Ioun/Erathis, is one of the reasons I loved the World Axis so much.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Yeah, I feel like it's kind of the point of the warlock to traffic with entities that are, while not necessarily evil, certainly dangerous and untrustworthy. Or at the very least, to wield magic that is "dark" or "edgy" in some way. If a player is not having fun playing out the stories this conflict generates, I'd ask them if warlock is really the type of character they want to play. Just like if they were a paladin but getting fed up with having to uphold a code, or a druid but getting tired of all this tree-hugging nonsense.

Okay, what is edgy or dark about the Celestial patron?
 


Okay, what is edgy or dark about the Celestial patron?
Ooh, you got me! I completely forgot about the Celestial patron! There is absolutely nothing in the text of that subclass to suggest anything painful or creepy about it which I might use to support my point...

"Being connected to such power can cause changes to your behavior and beliefs. You might find yourself driven to annihilate the undead, to defeat fiends, and to protect the innocent. At times, your heart might also be filled with a longing for the celestial realm of your patron, and a desire to wander that paradise for the rest of your days."

...oh, never mind.
 

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