Multiclass Feat Weirdness?

[Dannyalcatraz]

You keep saying this, but you're saying it wrong.

No, I'm saying exactly what I mean, but I'll spell it out for you- every PC in 4Ed has access to healing, independent of the Cleric, thus making healing intrinsically a more common resource than in any previous edition of the game, in which 90% of Healing came directly from Clerics, indirectly from Clerics (via potions), or through UMD.

In contrast, divine spellcasting and Channel Divine are scarce. Not only are they only available to Paladins and Clerics, but they are available only to single class Paladins and Clerics. Unlike previous editions, you can't even get access to such abilities via multiclassing.

 

[Belgarath]

Correct. Multiclass feats don't let you select feats for which you don't meet the prereqs, such as channel divinity or warlock's curse. But they do let you take feats that you otherwise qualify for.

Isnt laying on hands a channel divinity ability. its listed as such. the cleric ability i think is also a channel divinity as well iirc

 

[IanB]

My Fighter/Cleric of Tyr? Despite having only 2 classes, this isn't a low-level PC, being well into the Paragon level (to use 4Ed lingo) in both. She's specialized in longsword and can turn undead well enough to destroy them. But before you look at her abilities, realize that she advanced as a human fighter for 14-15 levels before devoting herself to Tyr. This isn't mere mechanics, this was a result of the plot of the campaign. This means you can't design her as a cleric first with a smattering of warrior powers- she must be designed as a Fighter first, which in 4Ed means she never gets Channel Divine. Meaning those undead don't get turned and destroyed.

In 4e terms I'm pretty sure this character is best represented as a paladin.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In 4e terms I'm pretty sure this character is best represented as a paladin.

And that is a problem- the PC didn't have any inherent divine or mystical abilities until she was a well-developed PC. Then and only then did she "hear the call" and take up the mantle of being a Cleric.

And 4Ed doesn't support that kind of PC development. The way the multiclass feats are designed- the ones connected to divine classes, anyway- the only way to have divine spellcasting/channelling abilities is to start off with them.

 

[theNater]

In contrast, divine spellcasting and Channel Divine are scarce. Not only are they only available to Paladins and Clerics, but they are available only to single class Paladins and Clerics. Unlike previous editions, you can't even get access to such abilities via multiclassing.

Do Raise Dead and Speak With Dead count as divine spells? Those are classic 3rd edition cleric abilities that are accessible to every character in 4th edition, regardless of race and class.

And 4Ed doesn't support that kind of PC development. The way the multiclass feats are designed- the ones connected to divine classes, anyway- the only way to have divine spellcasting/channelling abilities is to start off with them.

Consider the following:

Daunting Light Cleric Attack 3
A burning column of light engulfs your foe. Its brilliance burns and hinders your foe's defense for a short time.
Encounter * Divine, Implement, Radiant
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d10 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage.
Effect: One ally you can see gains combat advantage against the target until the end of your next turn.

This is avaliable to any character at level 4 at the cost of two feats. Any character who is 4th level or higher can gain this power in no more than two levels. I request that you either show evidence that this is not divine spellcasting or withdraw your claim that a character cannot aquire divine spellcasting after character creation.

Yes, you cannot use Channel Divinity unless you start as a cleric or a paladin. But Channel Divinity is not the be-all and end-all of devotion to a diety.

 

[silentounce]

And that is a problem- the PC didn't have any inherent divine or mystical abilities until she was a well-developed PC. Then and only then did she "hear the call" and take up the mantle of being a Cleric.

And 4Ed doesn't support that kind of PC development. The way the multiclass feats are designed- the ones connected to divine classes, anyway- the only way to have divine spellcasting/channelling abilities is to start off with them.

Although I do agree with you for the most part. I don't believe there is a rule that states you have to take the multiclass feat at first level. You could take it at any level, retrain for it later, etc. Your character could be modeled by being a fighter until paragon tier at which point you could start retraining your feats into multiclass feats.

Again, this is not ideal for this type of character. A lot of character builds just can't be done yet with 4e. Overall, I'd say 4e has been good for me though, it gave me an incentive to dig up my WFRP books and now I'm going to start a new campaign of that with my group.

 

[IanB]

And that is a problem- the PC didn't have any inherent divine or mystical abilities until she was a well-developed PC. Then and only then did she "hear the call" and take up the mantle of being a Cleric.

And 4Ed doesn't support that kind of PC development. The way the multiclass feats are designed- the ones connected to divine classes, anyway- the only way to have divine spellcasting/channelling abilities is to start off with them.

Well, that's not quite right - you can pick prayers up after the fact with the later power swap feats (and paragon multiclassing or hopping to a cross-class paragon path.)

Have you played much 4e? What feels like the defining characteristic of the leader role classes in actual play is *definitely* the minor action healing power, not the channel divinity stuff. We use all of those up in almost every fight. They're hugely important, much more so than second wind or the channel divinity powers, I would say.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well argued.

Yes, the power you described is indeed clerical spellcasting.

OTOH, the power swap feats don't let you have anything from the "At Will category," nor anything from the (as yet non-existent) non-Attack category of Clerical Prayers. Should something like that be added to the game, PC's will need to burn more feats.

But Channel Divinity is not the be-all and end-all of devotion to a diety.

Perhaps its a matter of flavor- in a realm where everyone has powers and so forth, a cleric who can't Channel Divine sounds gimpy & non-Clericy to me. He can't be a direct conduit for his god's will like all the real clerics can.

If you're a Christian (or understand its heirarchies,) to me its like the difference between a priest and a deacon. Depending upon denomination, a deacon can do a little or a lot of what the priest can, but regardless of denomination, he can't do it all.

Well, that's not quite right - you can pick prayers up after the fact with the later power swap feats (and paragon multiclassing or hopping to a cross-class paragon path.)

That PC was a front-line fighter who eventually became the sole source of Turning, etc. in the party, without stepping away from the front. That PC can't be done in 4Ed without seriously altering the sequence of character development because the multiclassing feat doesn't grant the requisite abilities.

Have you played much 4e?

As a matter of fact, nil.

Nobody in my various groups- myself included- thinks much of 4Ed.

What feels like the defining characteristic of the leader role classes in actual play is *definitely* the minor action healing power, not the channel divinity stuff. We use all of those up in almost every fight. They're hugely important, much more so than second wind or the channel divinity powers, I would say.

Perhaps from a mechanical point, but the flavor is quite off. And off-putting.

 

[theNater]

Well argued.

Yes, the power you described is indeed clerical spellcasting.

OTOH, the power swap feats don't let you have anything from the "At Will category," nor anything from the (as yet non-existent) non-Attack category of Clerical Prayers. Should something like that be added to the game, PC's will need to burn more feats.

There are, in fact, two categories of non-attack powers. They are rituals and utility powers.

Rituals are avaliable to everyone, without requiring a multiclass feat.

Utility powers have a power-swap feat which can be taken at level 8.

Perhaps its a matter of flavor- in a realm where everyone has powers and so forth, a cleric who can't Channel Divine sounds gimpy & non-Clericy to me. He can't be a direct conduit for his god's will like all the real clerics can.

You have made the complaint that healing and clerical attack powers don't feel clericy because everyone can get them. I put it to you that if everyone could aquire Channel Divine, it would cease to feel clericy.

If you're a Christian (or understand its heirarchies,) to me its like the difference between a priest and a deacon. Depending upon denomination, a deacon can do a little or a lot of what the priest can, but regardless of denomination, he can't do it all.

That PC was a front-line fighter who eventually became the sole source of Turning, etc. in the party, without stepping away from the front. That PC can't be done in 4Ed without seriously altering the sequence of character development because the multiclassing feat doesn't grant the requisite abilities.

I'm starting to think I may have misunderstood something about your character. In 3rd edition, does she have 15 levels of fighter and 15 levels of cleric? I was under the impression that once you hit character level 20, you started to take epic class levels, which functioned differently(and which I admit I never explored fully).

As a matter of fact, nil.

Nobody in my various groups- myself included- thinks much of 4Ed.

I suspect that if you approached it by looking for solutions rather than looking for problems, you might be more impressed.

Perhaps from a mechanical point, but the flavor is quite off. And off-putting.

Flavor does not affect the way the game is balanced. If you don't like it, change it.

 

[IanB]

Perhaps its a matter of flavor- in a realm where everyone has powers and so forth, a cleric who can't Channel Divine sounds gimpy & non-Clericy to me. He can't be a direct conduit for his god's will like all the real clerics can.

4e cleric fluff indicates that the cleric draws his power from his investiture more than directly from the deity. Granted, you might want to discard that as it is a decently large change from before.

That PC was a front-line fighter who eventually became the sole source of Turning, etc. in the party, without stepping away from the front. That PC can't be done in 4Ed without seriously altering the sequence of character development because the multiclassing feat doesn't grant the requisite abilities.

Given the mechanics of 3e turning, I am having a hard time imagining a character who has only dipped into cleric being anything other than useless with turn undead. Am I missing a house rule here? A multiclassed cleric can't do much with anything beyond the skeleton/zombie/ghoul zone in 3e, unless it is mostly cleric, and the character you're describing sounds like it is mostly fighter.