D&D 5E Multiclass Martial Classes and Extra Attack

[Mirtek]

because i know how to read and have already read the entries in question.

And yet failed to understand them. The example on page 163 couldn't be more clear. No matter how the levels would have been taken, by your logic the character in question would either have level 3 wizard spells or level 3 ranger spells. The example flat out shows how he has neither, not even level 2 ranger spells.

as for multiclassing spellcasters, the rules are also clear

Indeed.

"However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells."

Can't be any more clear.

 

[marsupial_riot]

And yet failed to understand them. The example on page 163 couldn't be more clear. No matter how the levels would have been taken, by your logic the character in question would either have level 3 wizard spells or level 3 ranger spells. The example flat out shows how he has neither, not even level 2 ranger spells.

Indeed.

"However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells."

Can't be any more clear.

might - past tense of may - expressing possibility

if you will note that ANY spellcaster, full progression or not, MAY choose to take spells of any level as they advance, even if they have a 9th level spell slot they MAY take magic missile.

your example from the book is merely expressing that there is a possibility that you MAY gain some spell slots through the multiclass spellcaster table that are of a higher level than the spells that you currently know or prepare, and while this does not allow you to change your current spells known, it does allow you to cast the spells you already know at a higher level. that is the only thing expressed in that example.

if you continue to reply or try to change my mind, i can keep posting the same stuff. really i hope you are not getting bent out of shape about it.

as i noted earlier, i can understand your interpretation of it all, i really do. it is not terribly well expressed in the passage. and for what it is worth, i could totally be happy playing in a game like that if the dm choose to rule that way. so perhaps the real question i would ask you, and anyone who disagrees with my interpretation, is what do you see as the major flaw in terms of mechanics in my interpretation? is it merely are matter of your RAW interpretation or do you see a mechanical flaw or danger in reading as i have explained. im just curious.

honestly its not a right or wrong thing for me. everyone plays the game differently, at this point im just trying to understand your great concern.

 

[Dausuul]

And yet failed to understand them. The example on page 163 couldn't be more clear. No matter how the levels would have been taken, by your logic the character in question would either have level 3 wizard spells or level 3 ranger spells. The example flat out shows how he has neither, not even level 2 ranger spells.

Indeed.

"However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells."

Can't be any more clear.

So, I think the wiggle room being claimed is that the text says "You don't know" rather than "You can't know," and therefore we should read this example as "This particular ranger 4/wizard 3 chose not to learn any 3rd-level wizard spells. But she could have if she'd wanted to."

I don't know why you would read it this way. The effort of trying to follow this line of reasoning has caused me permanent San loss. The whole point of the example is very obviously to demonstrate that a ranger 4/wizard 3 cannot cast 3rd-level spells despite having 3rd-level slots. But I guess you can convince yourself black is white if you want that fireball enough.

 

[Mirtek]

might - past tense of may - expressing possibility

No, no might, no possibility. Flat out "you don't know"

your example from the book is merely expressing that there is a possibility that you MAY gain some spell slots through the multiclass spellcaster table that are of a higher level than the spells that you currently know or prepare, and while this does not allow you to change your current spells known,

Except that you can change your spells known when taking a level. No matter if the sample character would take his 7th level from Ranger3/Wizard3 or from Ranger4/Wizard2, in any case he could get a 3rd level spell (wizard or ranger) by your logic. Except that he can't, because the rules do not allow it

 

[Jaelommiss]

Allow me to take you through the multiclassing spellcasting rules using an example. All rules written will be followed to the letter. All quotations are taken from page 164 of the PHB.

Let me introduce you to George. George is a level seven spellcaster, trained as both a cleric and a wizard. Cleric 3 / Wizard 4

Before we get into the rules for preparing spells, I'm going to establish when the multiclassing spellcasting rules take effect.

"Once you have the spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below. If you multiclass but have the spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class."

That seems fairly straightforward. George gains spellcasting from both the cleric and wizard classes, so he disregards what is written in his class descriptions and instead follows the multiclassing spellcasting rules. This is an excellent example of a specific rule overriding a general rule.

Moving on to preparing spells: "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually..."

For George we will be determining his cleric spells before and entirely separately from his wizard spells, and vice versa.

"... as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

That seems quite simple too. Cleric spells will be prepared as though George is a level 3 cleric. Wizard spells will be prepared as though he is a level 4 wizard. It will be like preparing spells for two separate entities.


A level 3 cleric has 4/2 spell slots. A level 4 wizard has 4/3 spell slots. His available spell slots are 4/3/3/1.

Because spells are prepared for each class individually, and the available spell slots are only considered when both classes are taken together, the available spell slots has no bearing on what spells can be prepared. Since the combined available slots are not considered when preparing spells, we must use the slots that would be available to each class separately.

Therefore, George would prepare his cleric spells up to a maximum spell level of two, and his wizard spells up to the same. He has higher level slots available for casting (three and four), as outlined as a possibility that might happen.

"If you have more than one spellcasting class, this might give you spell slots that is of a level higher than the spells you know or can prepare."

This makes it perfectly clear that the combined spellslots are separate to known and prepared spells. As is says that this MIGHT happen, we can disregard any interpretation that would preclude that possibility.

 

[marsupial_riot]

No, no might, no possibility. Flat out "you don't know"

just so you now, my might comment is referring to the quote from the book that keeps getting thrown in, pg 164 (emphasis mine):

"If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table MIGHT give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare."

that is all.

also just want to re-emphasis my further defense from every spellcasting class feature entry in the book, just wondering if you could tell me which entry i am reading incorrectly:

bard pg 53 "The Spells Known column of the Bard table shows when you learn more bard spells o f your choice. Each of these spells must be o f a level for which you have spell slots...."

cleric pg 58 "You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list.... The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

druid pg 66 "You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the druid spell list.... The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

eldritch knight pg 75 "The Spells Known column of the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard
spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

paladin pg 84 "You prepare the list of paladin spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the paladin spell list.... The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

ranger pg 91-92 "The Spells Known column o f the Ranger table shows when you learn more ranger spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

arcane trickster pg 98 "The Spells Known column o f the Arcane Trickster Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an enchantment or illusion spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

sorcerer pg 101 "The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

wizard pg 114 "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots...."


Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...artial-Classes-and-Extra-Attack#ixzz3MI0YqSrc

 

[Jaelommiss]

just wondering if you could tell me which entry i am reading incorrectly

"Once you have the spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below." -- PHB, 164

That one.

 

[Mirtek]

that is all.

No it is not all.

Saying that this is all is deliberately ignoring the specific sample of a character, who by your interpreation would have level 3 spells for at least one of his classes (whichever he took last) explicitly being stated as having no such spells.

, just wondering if you could tell me which entry i am reading incorrectly:

You're ignoring the sample and missreading the "for each class individually" part.

That part means that pretend you only have these class levels and none other for determining spells known. So if you're a wizard2/cleric3 going to wizard3/cleric3 you pretend you're a wizard 3 with the spell slots of a wizard 3 and can only take spells according to this.

That in truth you actually have 6th level slots from being an MC character doesn't help you here. You individually determine what a wizard 3 could take, and since a wizard 3 can only take 2nd level spells, that's the maximun you can take,

 

[Bohemond D'Arlac]

If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example,
you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your
levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know
three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten
wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when
you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level
spells.

As much as I feel this rule to be unnecessary punishing to multiclass casters, the example is crystal clear. There is no wiggle room at all.

 

[Theovis]

Is it possible that the phase "The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots" and similar are in the context of that specific class and aren't meant to override any reasonable interpretation of the optional multiclassing rules? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no multiclass rules at all in any of the class entries, it's kept deliberately isolated.