Pathfinder 1E Multiclassing - Make 'em train for it, or just give it away?

[Starfox]

[...]there used to be a rage mage prestige class in 3E and/or 3.5 that allowed the combination of these specific abilities.

That said, the archetypes and new classes of pathfinder means many concepts that used to require multiclassing can now be gained with an archetype, which is generally much easier in game terms. So perhaps the best solution here is a magus archetype with rage?

I fell for my own implicit challenge and made a rage magus AT and posted it in the house rules forum: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?340567-Rage-Magus-New-archetype&p=6177646#post6177646

 

[meien]

Personally I like having them train or at least come up with reasoning behind things. As so many keep pointing out it is just a game but it's also a roleplaying game. There's nothing wrong with telling your players to roleplay. You don't have to make it difficult and should help them accomplish the roleplaying to get as close as you can to the desired results but you don't have to just grant whatever a single player says just because.

Some examples that are quick and easy and cover having them roleplay and getting what they want is for the DM to look around and throw out things they can use or ask the player to give a story or explanation on something. The OP stated that they had a fighter in the group which is fairly similar in capabilities to a barbarian. If the character in question already had some rage issues and was a bit wild and headstrong or did something else that made him more like a barbarian then boom done. Someone used an example earlier of going on a drug/magic spirit quest and unlocking their inner strength or something which is amazing. It's a quick story thing that can be accomplished fairly easily and adds some neat flavor and aspects to roleplay off of later.

Don't be a dick about the story stuff and be like oh there's no one around anywhere for you to pull your story off. Say ok that's frickin cool and so now there's a witch or shaman or herbalist or something that lives nearby if you want to spend a day of downtime with her then we'll call it good for you to take barbarian when you level.

To me it all boils down to the fact that it's a roleplaying game so there should be some level of roleplaying. It's your job as the DM to encourage, guide and give opportunity to the players to roleplay. If someone wants to do something that they think would be fun work with them toward it even if it doesn't fit perfectly into your ideas and if they get huffy and leave because they don't want to do it then they probably should find a different type of game to play. I understand not everyone wants to come up with eight page backgrounds and deep personalities and would rather just focus on stats and rolling dice and hanging with friends but anyone who plays a roleplaying game should be prepared to at least do some minimal level of roleplay.

 

[N'raac]

Don't be a dick about the story stuff and be like oh there's no one around anywhere for you to pull your story off. Say ok that's frickin cool and so now there's a witch or shaman or herbalist or something that lives nearby if you want to spend a day of downtime with her then we'll call it good for you to take barbarian when you level.

To me it all boils down to the fact that it's a roleplaying game so there should be some level of roleplaying. It's your job as the DM to encourage, guide and give opportunity to the players to roleplay. If someone wants to do something that they think would be fun work with them toward it even if it doesn't fit perfectly into your ideas and if they get huffy and leave because they don't want to do it then they probably should find a different type of game to play. I understand not everyone wants to come up with eight page backgrounds and deep personalities and would rather just focus on stats and rolling dice and hanging with friends but anyone who plays a roleplaying game should be prepared to at least do some minimal level of roleplay.

All sounds good. So what role playing is required to gain a level in your existing class, learn a new feat, learn new spells, etc.? IOW, why is multiclassing special in this regard?

 

[meien]

The roleplaying needed to gain in your existing class is to perform aspects of your class. In this case a sorcerer needs to cast spells, use skills associated with being a sorcerer, etc. It's like if you do your job in real life for long periods you get better at your job and it takes actual training whether on the job training with someone going over it with you or going to school or something to learn a new profession. that initial training aspect is included for a starting character as part of the starting age which is why some classes that are harder to master have higher average starting ages. Why not have some sort of training or similar reasoning to multiclassing? Why would multiclassing be special in that it doesn't need some sort of training?

 

[N'raac]

Why would multiclassing be special in that it doesn't need some sort of training?

By the same token, why are new spells, class features feats, etc. special and do not need training? How does casting your Sleep spell repeatedly teach you how to cast a Mirror Image or a Web?

Actual training is required in most professions to stay current with advances in professional issues, advance to new positions and add new skills relevant as you progress, if we are adopting a "how does it work in the real world" model.

That training is behind the scenes/assumed for most progression in the game, so I question why multiclassing is different.

 

[meien]

To me after you know the basics of something people (or at least me) generally try new things within the same general frame work to see if they work better/worse/give new results. So a wizard or sorcerer who understands the basic principles of magic can do some modifications/experiments and modify and create new spells using basic principles. If you know the basics eventually over time (ie the experience it takes to level up in gaming terms) you can practice them and get better at them. I just don't like gaining unrelated abilities out of the blue. It's not hard to tell the DM "hey in my off time I'm working towards being a (class) by practicing during down time with whatever you make available" and talking about it for a minute. A lot of times between the 2 of you talking you can actually get additional story hooks or roleplay or come up with new things that can fit what you want even better.

Not sure how other people's games are but usually my players will tell me during down time that they are going to do something related to their specialty. Or after their initial description just say they're doing the usual and only speak up if they want to do something different. They go to a temple and seek guidance from the other members, or go to the library and research some form of monsters or spells, or they go to the local militia/constabulary and either use their practice area or volunteer to train with them learning more and teaching what they know. So they tell me at least once that they are using at least some level of that real world model of advancing themselves that you're talking about.

Also I'm not opposed to throwing books into my game sessions that "reveal" studies or whatever that my players can use to boost their knowledge through study. This works for magic users who find out some revelation about spells or for martial types with pictures and instructions on particular moves. I've also thrown in books that have studies of different species that if studied for a while give boosts to different knowledge checks or similar items. So they can go beyond just what they get from leveling if they actually participate in the roleplaying aspect of the game.

I've had a player who was playing a sorcerer defeat a foe and got a war hammer out of it. He got in a bad spot for a minute when the bad guy got up on him and he decided I'm going to learn to use weapons better so guys can't just get in my face. So he talked to the fighter and came to an agreement with him for training. He told me they would spend 1 hour a night while on the road before sleeping just practicing that. When they were in town they went to the garrison and paid a silver or 2 for use of their practice area for the several days they were going to be in town and went and practiced. When he leveled I gave him proficiency war hammer for free.

I understand that some people just see the classes as random stats and don't want to do all that. We have a player in our group that does very little roleplay and focuses mostly on the stats and there's nothing wrong with that. The OP said what he did and asked what we do. I ask for some level of roleplay. It doesn't have to be grand theater just enough to show you're engaged.

The OP didn't handle the situation exactly the way I personally would have but I don't see anything wrong with him wanting extra roleplaying in his game either. Like I said in the first post he should have found a way for the guy to be a barbarian. It could have been as simple as looking at the fighter and saying "hey does your character mind training him in some basic combat abilities and weapon use? You will cool. Hey sorcerer during down time you're working with the fighter on basic combat stuff but you're not going to reach his level of precision that quick so you end up as a barbarian." That allows them to play off of each other during game play, gives reasoning for what's happening and gives the player what he wants for barely more brain power than just having him write barbarian on his sheet when they level. To me that's a better way of getting things done instead of just having new things pop up just because.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I prefer characters to learn their new class from someone who has the class rather than just hand it to them.

Some people (like you) enjoy this. I personally hate it. It makes me feel as if I have to "jump through hoops" for the DM's amusement just to be able to do what I should be able to do (pick the class for my next level) as a matter of right.

When I play with a DM who imposes this restriction, I grudgingly tolerate it as long as a "trainer" is readily available. (In other words, as long as the restriction is effectively insignificant.) The moment it actually interferes with my character's development, I'll quit the game, because I resent the interference that much.

When I stuck to my guns about the training he became sour and left rather quickly.

Yep. Your player feels like I do--that you committed the DM's Cardinal Sin: you interfered with a player's character. (Now, if your house rules were clear from the beginning and he ignored that fact when he decided to multiclass into barbarian, I have no sympathy for him. But if you didn't make it clear right from 1st level that multiclassing requires a trainer, you're in the wrong.)

So what's the over-riding opinion out there for multiclassing? Give it away or make him earn it?

You can't give away what you don't own. The choice is rightly his. If you insist on "making him earn it," you may lose that player. Your decision.

 

[Starfox]

Another way to put this role-playing requirement is that the player and DM jointly should put in a "montage" of the training, a cutscene where it is explained where these abilities came from. This does not require jumping through hoops in-game, just that you weave together a comprehensive story.

 

[N'raac]

Also I'm not opposed to throwing books into my game sessions that "reveal" studies or whatever that my players can use to boost their knowledge through study. This works for magic users who find out some revelation about spells or for martial types with pictures and instructions on particular moves. I've also thrown in books that have studies of different species that if studied for a while give boosts to different knowledge checks or similar items. So they can go beyond just what they get from leveling if they actually participate in the roleplaying aspect of the game.

So why doesn't it work for the martial character studying a book of arcane lore at a basic level, or a spellcaster reading a basic martial training book?

It seems like you're taking a slightly different approach, giving players a freebie if they do some extra role playing. The sorcerer gets all his usual abilities, plus a bonus feat (warhammer proficiency), because he worked with the fighter every evening and practiced back in town. Can he now work with the Wizard to learn how to Extend his spells or scribe scrolls and get that feat for free? Can the Rogue teach him how to Sneak Attack? Why does he get the Warhammer proficiency but not proficiency in some other martial weapons? Why not a free fighter level gestalted with his Sorcerer level? As payback, can the Sorcerer teach the Fighter how to cast, say, True Strike or Haste?

It's a more free form approach to gaining character abilities. Whether that's good or bad depends entirely on whether the group is enjoying it, but much less consistent/reliable/predictable than getting the abilities your new level provides - no more and no less.

It could have been as simple as looking at the fighter and saying "hey does your character mind training him in some basic combat abilities and weapon use? You will cool. Hey sorcerer during down time you're working with the fighter on basic combat stuff but you're not going to reach his level of precision that quick so you end up as a barbarian." That allows them to play off of each other during game play, gives reasoning for what's happening and gives the player what he wants for barely more brain power than just having him write barbarian on his sheet when they level. To me that's a better way of getting things done instead of just having new things pop up just because.

So, if working with the fighter is enough to gain the Sorcerer access to the Barbarian class (not sure how he gained rage, enhanced movement and all those extra skills - all that training must still be in the background somehow), does that mean that the Fighter could choose to take a Barbarian level with no extra training, or does it only work when his fighter skills are taught to non-fighters?

To the thread title question - yes, he has to earn it. He earns it by gaining sufficient xp to gain a level. That earns him the right to go up a level.

First, select your new class level.

Instead of gaining the abilities granted by the next level in your character's current class, he can instead gain the 1st-level abilities of a new class, adding all of those abilities to his existing ones. This is known as “multiclassing.”

That's how he "earns" multiclassing. The example is a fighter who takes a wizard level, which seems no different from a sorcerer taking a barbarian level.

 

[meien]

I don't know why you want to fight me on this. I gave my opinion that I would do some sort of roleplay even if it was simple roleplay for the character to multiclass. I also explained that my players tend to say that they are doing stuff in down time and through everyday stuff related to their current class explaining why they get better or explaining why they're learning something new. If you don't want that don't do it. I've also stated that I understand per the book that it's not required and some people don't like to do it.

First if I threw those items in then a fighter could swap to magic if he chose, a wizard could learn martial if he chose. I've generally not had my players do so but I would allow that as the roleplay/background whatever to work towards the multiclass or to gain some minor ability.

The guy only got proficiency with the hammer because that was what he practiced. That's what he was taught. That's what he told me he was working on. And minor bonuses like that do little compared to a full level of something and add flavor. Proficiency is the lowest level with a weapon so if he wanted to teach the fighter a spell or 2 he'd start at the lowest with a 0 level spell instead of teaching him haste right away. I've had a fighter learn light before and there are feats/traits that could allow it so with proper roleplaying he could get that from me instead of multiclassing if he just wanted that single minor thing.

I can explain the rage as being less precise and more wild and relying on adrenaline more than the full technique the fighter taught him. The speed because he built up his leg muscles using armor and now that he isn't wearing it between the strength, lack of encumbrance and adrenaline he moves around the field quicker (and yes if the fighter took off all his armor and threw out this reasoning I'd be willing to grant him the +10ft movement for a combat or whatever). The skills are a bit more odd but in pathfinder he could still put those points in the skills he was taking as a sorcerer to show he wasn't fully neglecting that aspect of his character. I may do some minor hand waving on things to get the desired result as long as most of it falls into place. I came up with that in just a few seconds of thought. If someone else (hopefully the player) comes up with better ideas then bonus. In your example of the fighter to barbarian my players would generally be roleplaying in a way that would lead to it. If the fighter was already playing a high adrenaline, easily angered fighter that dived into things and said they were going barbarian fine. They've been doing something that fits it. If they've been playing a calculating, defensive minded, methodical character I doubt they would change their character concept and add in barbarian. If they said they were I would ask them why and how. If they came up with something fine. If they just just shrugged their shoulders I'd point out it doesn't fit. If they still said they really wanted it I'd work with them to come up with a reason. It's rarely if ever comes up where no one can find a reason for something and play it out.

This is stuff done mostly in the background and I'm not making them jump through hoops or anything. Just trying to find ways to encourage roleplay and exert a bit of thought.

In response to your final quote from the srd, look at page 9 of the core book. I don't know how to do all the quoting and what not since I don't get on here very often but it's the part titled "The most important rule." It talks about breathing life into the game, modify things to make sense to you, have open discussion between the player and dm, dm has final arbitration, and my favorite "Remember these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs." I modify my game because I enjoy having roleplaying and sometimes the rules don't make sense to me. If you like to go exactly as written that's perfectly fine. More power to you.