D&D 3E/3.5 My 3.5 House Rules Codex – Final

[nonsi256]

My 3.5 House Rules Codex – Final

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[FONT=&quot]
Fellow homebrewers, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]my house rules project is signed, sealed and delivered at last.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There are but 3 issues I still haven’t managed to resolve:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- Magical crossbreeding (the creation of new species via magic).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] - Magic powered vehicles (submarines, burrowing caterpillars, flying ships, flying castles etc)[/FONT].
[FONT=&quot] - Symbionts (granted (Ex) powers & LAs).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Other than the above, I’ve covered every gaming aspect I know of.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I've made quite a few attempts regarding the above issues, but couldn’t come up with results that I was content with.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Before signing off (still here for questions though), I’d like to thank all who, knowingly or unknowingly, took part in this enterprise.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Basically, that’s it. I’ve exhausted all of my inspiration.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]From here on, any changes will be made (if at all) exclusively based on productive feedbacks from the readers, if and when my “blank trio” issues (above) are resolved.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Happy gaming everyone.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[ValhallaGH]

Always glad to be of help.

Why do magic-powered vehicles need to follow different rules than other items?
Flying Carpet would be an Emanating Mass Fly effect (probably level 5), with a Verbal activation. Maybe throw in a Mage's Floating Disk for any cargo.

 

[nonsi256]

Why do magic-powered vehicles need to follow different rules than other items?
Flying Carpet would be an Emanating Mass Fly effect (probably level 5), with a Verbal activation. Maybe throw in a Mage's Floating Disk for any cargo.

Actually, thinking of Aladdin's flying carpet, it seems more appropriate for it to be a low-Int, LG construct, with emanating Fly power and eagerness to please.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Well, yeah, the Disney cartoon did present that. That one was animated, though, and historically flying carpets have a minimum of intelligence or choice (random bits here and there, usually to keep a main character from dying inappropriately but it's rare).
Also, that's just one example, not the entirety of magical vehicles.
Air Ship: Fly, emanating from a ship (or specific parts of the ship).
Apparatus of Kwalshi: A few environmental immunities, and the rest is actually a semi-mechanical contraption (could be deceptive; may have magic fields where we'd expect gears to be).
Floating Castle: ... A castle. With a kick-butt feature; again, some sort of Fly effect that affects the castle itself. Or you Summon Superman to hold up your castle for eons.

 

[nonsi256]

Air Ship: Fly, emanating from a ship (or specific parts of the ship).
Apparatus of Kwalshi: A few environmental immunities, and the rest is actually a semi-mechanical contraption (could be deceptive; may have magic fields where we'd expect gears to be).
Floating Castle: ... A castle. With a kick-butt feature; again, some sort of Fly effect that affects the castle itself. Or you Summon Superman to hold up your castle for eons.

Well, you beat me to the punch.
It's not just that. I mean:
- Flying, sailing, driving, diving and burrowing are different means of transportaion.
- How much space/volume/mass could you affect with a single spell?
- How much carrying capacity should it provide?
- How fast should each type of vehicle be able to move?
- How do you bind the effects to each other for a massive singular effect?
- How do you bind them all to a single, semi-mechanical semi-magical, command unit? How do you guard one?
- How hard should it really be to dispel/destroy such an endeavor?
- What about Plsne Shift/Etherealness/Teleportation?
- And what about floating islands?

And those are not even all the questions.

As I said - way too much paperwork for me at this time.
I'm just too far from anything that would be remotely relyable and yet mortally viable.

 

[Hawken]

- How much space/volume/mass could you affect with a single spell?
- How much carrying capacity should it provide?
- How fast should each type of vehicle be able to move?
- How do you bind the effects to each other for a massive singular effect?
- How do you bind them all to a single, semi-mechanical semi-magical, command unit? How do you guard one?
- How hard should it really be to dispel/destroy such an endeavor?
- What about Plsne Shift/Etherealness/Teleportation?
- And what about floating islands?

These are all issues that are covered in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. You made a previous claim that the DMG seemed arbitrary and a lot of 'hand waving' was done, yet I pointed out more than one instance where that book had answers or guidance that you were lacking.

The same holds true here. I don't really see where you're getting that the prices in the SBG are arbitrary. They definitely seemed to be based logically on some formula though like magic items in the DMG there are some price discrepancies here and there that could be attributed to lackluster editing. Same thing with your 'handwaving' accusation which isn't really a fair complaint. Its not up to the writers to cover ALL possible applications of their rules. They just provide the rules and in a clear enough manner for the DM to apply them to what he wants to do.

The only issue that might not be covered in the SBG is the 'floating island' one. But that is largely a moot point. PCs don't create floating islands. Travel to them, maybe. Figure out how to crash or sink one, possibly. Make them, nope. They don't get enough wealth or resources to do that. Epic characters...maybe, but that is a process that would largely be (to use your own term) handwaved into existence because the process to create a floating island would largely be a one time, one shot thing. Unless your players are just rolling in enough cash and real estate to attempt to create airborne island after airborne island.

 

[nonsi256]

[FONT=&quot]>> These are all issues that are covered[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]I’ve read the rules. They're all based upon Reverse Gravity (how do you extrapolate different speeds & prices out of that spell, which doesn’t even remotely work like that, is beyond me).


[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> You made a previous claim that the[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> DMG seemed arbitrary and a lot of[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> 'hand waving' was done, yet I pointed[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> out more than one instance where tha[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> book had answers or guidance that[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> you were lacking. [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]what you saw then was a work in progress. Did you look at the final result?


[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> The same holds true here. I don't really[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> see where you're getting that the prices[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> in the SBG are arbitrary. They definitely[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> seemed to be based logically on some [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> formula though like magic items in the[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> DMG there are some price discrepancies[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> here and there that could be attributed[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> to lackluster editing.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]If you recognize a pattern, I’d sure be glad to see one.


[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> Same thing with your 'handwaving'[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> accusation which isn't really a fair complaint.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]It’s not a personal thing, you know. I just call’em as I see’em.


[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> Its not up to the writers to cover ALL[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> possible applications of their rules.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]The main issue I’m having with the given rules is that they dictate prices according to the numbers. You can’t use that to formulate.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]What dictates prices should be the spell’s level, its frequency of use, how action-taxing its activation is and the caster-level in which it operates.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]I found no info on any of the above.


[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> They just provide the rules and in a[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> clear enough manner for the DM to[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> apply them to what he wants to do.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Not clear enough for me or for hundreds of others who started debates I saw on that matter.


[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> The only issue that might not be covered[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> in the SBG is the 'floating island' one. But[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> that is largely a moot point. PCs don't create[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> floating islands. Travel to them, maybe.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> Figure out how to crash or sink one, possibly.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> Make them, nope. They don't get enough[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> wealth or resources to do that.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]At the mortal-epic borderline?[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Why not? What if I’m a real slick player and I’ve found a way to manipulate a lot of forces around me to fix myself a real nice cash flow? What if that’s exactly where I was aiming for in terms of character development?


[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> Epic characters...maybe, but that is a[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> process that would largely be (to use[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> your own term) handwaved into[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> existence because the process to create[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> a floating island would largely be a one[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> time, one shot thing. Unless your players[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> are just rolling in enough cash and real[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> estate to attempt to create airborne[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]>> island after airborne island.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]So can be the case for “regular” items. It depends on a lot of parameters.[/FONT]​

 

[Hawken]

I’ve read the rules. They're all based upon Reverse Gravity (how do you extrapolate different speeds & prices out of that spell, which doesn’t even remotely work like that, is beyond me).

Actually, there is a table in there for the locomotion of a stronghold that is capable of movement. I don't have the book in front of me right now (I just moved to a new place) but I'm fairly certain that table has different costs associated with it based on varying speeds.

what you saw then was a work in progress. Did you look at the final result?

I think I saw the final version a little while back, but my point was about your claim of handwaving and such. You're a little too quick on your claims of handwaving and arbitrariness while offering (initially) nothing better and you're doing the same thing here, especially considering that you seem not to even understand the work you're now criticizing.

Before you start claiming flaws in things you don't understand--and you don't understand the SBG or we wouldn't be having this conversation--why not try to figure out what it does first and learn its strengths; and in doing so, you'll figure out possible shortcomings that can be corrected.

If you recognize a pattern, I’d sure be glad to see one.

There are patterns in the book. If you read the rules (until you understand them), you'll see the patterns in the tables and the pricing. That you're not seeing 'patterns' simply means you've either not looked at the rules or you've only skimmed through them. Read them. If you don't get it the first time, repeat as necessary. They're not too straightforward but its not like reading the owner's manual of a car either.

It’s not a personal thing, you know. I just call’em as I see’em.

That's the thing though. You're not seeing it. Clearly at any rate. You fired off snap judgments before. You're doing the same thing now. You didn't understand the DMG rules then, you're missing the SBG rules now.

The main issue I’m having with the given rules is that they dictate prices according to the numbers. You can’t use that to formulate.
What dictates prices should be the spell’s level, its frequency of use, how action-taxing its activation is and the caster-level in which it operates.
I found no info on any of the above.

The thing is, that's exactly what the book does. The costs are based on the spells used (and thus their levels), there is some issue of frequency but SBG typically covers ongoing enchantments.

Also, I personally don't get your "action-taxing activation" thing. Whether an effect is triggered by an act of will, a spoken word or waving an arm or object around, is largely irrelevant and a matter of flavor for the most part. It shouldn't be any more or less challenging to make an effect activate in whatever manner its creator desires. Because potions are liquids, they are activated by being consumed or rubbed on someone. Scrolls are activated by being read (by a spellcaster that can understand what's written). Just about everything else is by an act of will or a spoken word. That has no bearing on the price but is a consequence of the nature of the magical item.

Not clear enough for me or for hundreds of others who started debates I saw on that matter.

Then you and those hundreds of others need to go back and actually read the rules. Its one thing to not understand something but its another thing entirely to disagree

At the mortal-epic borderline? Why not? What if I’m a real slick player and I’ve found a way to manipulate a lot of forces around me to fix myself a real nice cash flow? What if that’s exactly where I was aiming for in terms of character development?

Because epic characters tend to invest their wealth in arms, armor and other items, not in real estate. Characters that don't spend their money on gear for the next tougher monster to come along get eaten by that monster without some seriously good rolls or divine (DM) intervention.

If you want to create a game where the players have to "build" a flying island, go for it. But they'll probably get bored really quickly because there's nothing exciting about it, there's no challenge and what's the pay-off? Oh, I got a flying island, but I don't have the gear or resources to defend it! Now what?

One thing you're missing here that you missed with your item creation discussion is that for the most part players don't care about creating magic items beyond "can I do it?", "how much does it cost?" and "when do I get it?" The rules are for the DM to use to help him decide if it can be done, if it should be done and how much it will cost. That's why its in the DMG and not the PHB.

So can be the case for “regular” items. It depends on a lot of parameters.

Parameters that have been set out and explained already. Just because you don't understand or agree with them doesn't make them less valid or even useless.

 

[nonsi256]

Not that I’m taking anything personally, but . . .

“You're a little too quick on your claims of handwaving and arbitrariness while offering (initially) nothing better”
“you seem not to even understand the work you're now criticizing.”
“Before you start claiming flaws in things you don't understand--and you don't understand the SBG”
“That you're not seeing 'patterns' simply means you've either not looked at the rules or you've only skimmed through them”
“You're not seeing it”
“You fired off snap judgments before”
“didn't understand the DMG rules then, you're missing the SBG rules now.”
“Then you and those hundreds of others need to go back and actually read the rules.”
“ Just because you don't understand or agree with them”

Notice a recurring “finger pointing” pattern?



And now for the issues, one by one.


>> Actually, there is a table in there for the locomotion
>> of a stronghold that is capable of movement.
The table is in front of me at this very moment.

>> I'm fairly certain that table has different costs
>> associated with it based on varying speeds.
Great. Now explain it to me like I was 6 years old. How do you extract so many different movements out of a spell that doesn’t have anything remotely associated with voluntary aerial movement?
And given the spell level is already set, where do the movement & pricing diffs come from, other than caster level (which was never formulated into items’ pricing to begin with – and if it ever were, then somebody did a terrible editing job, given I never found it)?


>> I think I saw the final version a little while back
Then you didn’t. The final version is in my house rules codex; entry (= post) #3.


>> You're a little too quick on your claims of
>> handwaving and arbitrariness while offering
>> (initially) nothing better
Nicely put. Initially. That’s why I presented the topic for public discussion – to figure missing bits of info, inconsistencies and inaccuracies (not so everybody will cheer and tell me what a genius I am. Getting a pat on the head in the virtual space is not among my psychological needs). And ValhallaGH's tips worked wonders.


>> you seem not to even understand the work
>> you're now criticizing.
I believe I got the numbers quite nicely figured out.
What I couldn’t locate are the computation methodologies. Not of scrolls, potions, wands and other disposable applications of spells that are given specifically and easy to find, but of permanent items that work different than the spells they’re supposed to be based upon (or not based upon spells at all – e.g. plusses & stat enhancements of various sorts, which don’t correspond to spell levels at all).


>> Before you start claiming flaws in things
>> you don't understand
I wasn’t talking about flaws in the broad meaning. All I said was that the rules as given are not satisfactory in my view.


>> why not try to figure out what it does first and learn its strengths;
Did it occur to you that after so many years of using the rules on both sides of the fence, one would probably get a picture of how the clock ticks?


>> and in doing so, you'll figure out possible
>> shortcomings that can be corrected.
Unless one decides s/he doesn’t want to sow patches over foundations s/he finds unsatisfying.


>> There are patterns in the book. If you read
>> the rules (until you understand them), you'll
>> see the patterns in the tables and the pricing.
Ok, let’s stop going around the bush.
What patterns do you recognize?
Let’s say I have a 2nd level effect that’s always active when the item is equipped/donned.
How much will it cost me?
How much will it cost if the caster level were 7th instead of 3rd?
How much will it cost me to be able to turn it on/off whenever I want?
And if it’s a trap that reacts to anyone touching it in a wrong manner? How much does the “reactiveness” feature cost me?
And what if the power is permanent, but limited in #uses per time quota – how much cheaper will it make the item?
Notice that I deliberately not mention a specific effect, just the raw data of how the item functions.


>> That you're not seeing 'patterns' simply means
>> you've either not looked at the rules or you've
>> only skimmed through them.
Or maybe I’m looking for rules that were not formulated before 3.5e’s time-to-the-market deadline.
Did you notice that aside from the errata, all added materials were patches upon the 3 core books and that they never touched any of the rules after they were released – as if they were the divine word of god? (just some stuff to contemplate).


>> The thing is, that's exactly what the book does.
>> The costs are based on the spells used (and
>> thus their levels), there is some issue of frequency
>> but SBG typically covers ongoing enchantments.
The book just presents numbers without explaining how they’re deduced.
The book doesn’t cover submerged movement, vehicles that burrow and many more issues.
The book doesn’t mention a control module or means of dispelling/destruction.
And so on and so forth.


>> Also, I personally don't get your "action-taxing
>> activation" thing.
Does it take a standard action to activate?
A move action?
A swift/immediate action?
A free action?
A non-action (a part of another action)?
Does it go off on its own given the appropriate condition(s)?


>> Whether an effect is triggered by an act of will,
No can do – unless the item is intelligent and possesses the capability of telepathy.
(another topic I don’t remember to have encountered)


>> a spoken word or waving an arm or object
>> around, is largely irrelevant and a matter
>> of flavor for the most part.
It matters if you’re gagged/bound/deaf/blind/feebleminded/submerged...
If it all cost the same, I’d always make all options available – and that’s how much variety you’d have in activation modes. Zero.


>> It shouldn't be any more or less challenging
>> to make an effect activate in whatever manner
>> its creator desires.
Ditto.


>> Its one thing to not understand something but
>> its another thing entirely to disagree
Let me get it straight. Am I forbidden to disagree :-0


>> Because epic characters tend to invest their
>> wealth in arms, armor and other items, not in
>> real estate. Characters that don't spend their
>> money on gear for the next tougher monster
>> to come along get eaten by that monster
>> without some seriously good rolls or divine
>> (DM) intervention.
One of the main incentives behind my house rules was to kill the sham called “WBL”.
At lower levels, the right magical item might be invaluable. However, at the higher levels, there shouldn’t exist a specific item that makes the difference between survival and TPK on a regular basis.
And it’s not supposed to be all based so profoundly upon stats (which is the case with 3e).
The DM having to intervene on a regular basis to keep the WBL is plain simple BS.
And... a shrewd enough character(player) might be a great merchant and gain a kazillion and one gps more than anyone else in the campaign.
Equipment can be lost, stolen, damaged, confiscated and so on. Having to go through hulahoops to maintain WBL is counter-intuitive to the storyline, non-credible and counterproductive to the campaign and the group.


>> If you want to create a game where the players
>> have to "build" a flying island, go for it.
“Have to” never crossed my mind.


>> there's nothing exciting about it, there's no challenge.
For some, probably not. For others... there might be some hidden potential in it.

>> and what's the pay-off?
A base of operations no one on earth can put under siege, for instance?


>> Oh, I got a flying island, but I don't have
>> the gear or resources to defend it! Now what?
See above.


>> One thing you're missing here that you missed
>> with your item creation discussion is that for
>> the most part players don't care about creating
>> magic items beyond "can I do it?". , "how much
>> does it cost?" and "when do I get it?"
YMMV.
Different things make different people tick.

>>The rules are for the DM to use to help him decide
>> if it can be done, if it should be done and how
>> much it will cost. That's why its in the DMG?
>> and not the PHB.
1. Apparently, some don’t find them satisfyingly informative.
2. Did you never look inside the DMG as a player?


>> Just because you don't understand or agree with
>> them doesn't make them less valid or even useless.
Just for future occurrences, you got your emphasis reversed.

 

[Hawken]

Nonsi, regarding your 'finger pointing' nonsense, I don't call it like I see it, I call it like it is. And there's nothing wrong with finger pointing when its done to point out obvious flaws, mistakes, invalid points, etc.. I'm the last person on this entire forum to fall in line with any PC bull crap. And you have yet to deny or refute any of that finger pointing I did. Show me where any of those are wrong.

You admit (maybe sarcastically, but for the sake of this point, I'll go with genuinely) that you don't understand the book. If you don't understand something you cannot offer any valid criticism or complaint of it, and you especially can't offer any reasonable fixes. What you're doing is like saying Shakespeare sucks but you've got an idea for a better story after you've only read the Cliff Notes and not the actual material.

Let me get it straight. Am I forbidden to disagree :-0

Didn't state that. But like I mentioned above, you have no valid disagreement on a subject you don't understand. If you don't understand something, disagreeing with it or calling it wrong is an emotional response, subjective, and thus neither objective nor logical. If you need an example of how worthless subjective opinions are when it comes to facts, watch just about anything on MSNBC and you'll get the idea.

I didn't respond to all of your points because many of them were covered already and you're just stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the information in front of you and how it can be applied to your games. You accuse the authors of not providing enough information and seem to hold some contempt for them writing a book not up to your standards (whatever those may be), but your opinion is in the very tiny minority in that regard, for you and your hundreds of people that don't get it are vastly outnumbered by the thousands that do. If you need help understanding the books, find someone that does understand and ask them to explain it. That's not what this forum is for. Neither is this a forum for whining or complaining about the authors of 3rd edition because their material is not to your satisfaction.

Until you get the gist of the 3.5 rules, any house rule you create is innately flawed by your incomplete understanding of what it is you're trying to fix or improve.