My 3 quibbles with 4e

[ProfessorPain]

Yep, I agree with this, somewhat. Basically, it's a feature of the way the game is designed. So, if you don't like the powers structure, it's pretty clear that 4e won't be the game for you. Obviously, if you like the powers structure, then that's good.

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I think most people who were critical of 4E when it came out (even those who sited other reasons) were really reacting to the powers system. Of all the changes from previous editions, this is the biggest. It is one of those things people either love or dislike.

 

[bobthehappyzombie]

Talking of the grind thing, we have not experianced any of it, in fact last week we took out a kobold warband before they got to go... and my slow arse paladin never got a look in either.
We've had no character deaths yet, but we've hit the deck quite a few times.

As for keeping up with marks, we all have a bunch of counters to shove under the figures and the players have to remember what they're for.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Talking of the grind thing, we have not experianced any of it, in fact last week we took out a kobold warband before they got to go... and my slow arse paladin never got a look in either.
We've had no character deaths yet, but we've hit the deck quite a few times.

As for keeping up with marks, we all have a bunch of counters to shove under the figures and the players have to remember what they're for.

Interesting.

What level was your group vs kobold level?
How many of the warband were minions?

 

[Imaro]

Talking of the grind thing, we have not experianced any of it, in fact last week we took out a kobold warband before they got to go... and my slow arse paladin never got a look in either.
We've had no character deaths yet, but we've hit the deck quite a few times.

As for keeping up with marks, we all have a bunch of counters to shove under the figures and the players have to remember what they're for.

Yes, please expound... I'm also interested in the details of this combat.

 

[Pbartender]

(1) Grind isn't inevitable. It's a direct result of mediocre tactics. Improved tactics will minimize grind. If the whole party isn't working together to set up their buddies, combat will last much longer than it should.

This is true both for the party and for the monsters...

In my games, most monsters (except for the most mindless or the most fanatical) will try to retreat when they start reaching bloodied hit points. It's a logical point at which the creature says to itself, "Oh, I'm hurt and don't want to die... If I don't leave now, I might not survive to get away!" Not only does it provide a tangible turning point for the PCs, it also forces everyone to adjust tactics as the balance of power shifts, and it typically cuts a battle short by half.

(2) Grind is almost inevitable, given the system. In this case, I think the best thing you can do is reduce all enemy defenses by 2 and increase their damage by 1/2 their level whenever you see a combat grinding. This won't block poor rolls, but it will help everyone land their attacks a lot better.

The same can be applied here...

There is a difference between a boring (grinding) battle and a long battle. The two are mutually exclusive. You can have long battles that don't grind, because interesting things keep happening... terrain that affects directly impacts tactics, a variety of special abilities used by the enemies, combatants that move about the the battlefield, tactics that change as the battle unfolds, non-combat objectives within the context of the battle, etc.

I know not every battle can be like that, but you can toss a little spice into the minor combats, and then make certain that the big, important battles are thoroughly seasoned, because you know they'll take a long time.

 

[avin]

1 - I'm writing monster HP on scratch paper. When they are afflicted by some condition I mark on it. Players help with this. So far this is not better or worse than 3E (cleric bonus, bard bonus and some ranger doing tricks). I miss GURPS when I see D&D conditions... I'm considering using some eletronic tool for that. Wotc should consider creating one...

2 - Not a problem here for me. Controller, brute and some artilley and the problem is solved.

3 - Ah... combat grind... AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, 4E I HATE YOU ALL (lol)!!! My campaigns, no matter what edition, aren't too combat oriented so I'm just giving levels to players when I feel appropriate.

 

[Nebulous]

1. We used colored tabs to denote all conditions, and it works extremely well. Marking is probably the trickiest, and i actively avoid using monsters that mark, or change their power, or just up the damage instead.

2. We haven't had many deaths, but we've had some close calls and plenty of scary encounters where they "thought" they were going to die. As others mentioned, monsters a few levels higher than the PCs in advantageous terrain can wipe them out pretty easily. If that's your goal. Any terrain that slows the party and that monsters are unhindered can give them bad guys terrific battlefield advantage.

And never underestimate ongoing damage, it can slay an unconscious character in no time.

3. We haven't experienced the grind, although i've had enemies flee, die, or cut their hp behind the scenes before it got to that point. It requires being flexible in the middle of combat to change the flow of the fight.

 

[wayne62682]

I have to disagree with point #2 - It's been my experience that EVERY combat is pretty deadly. My group normally blows through our healing in like 4 rounds, to where we have surges but no way to use them (Disclaimer: We only have 4 players) while the monsters just seem to keep coming and dishing out pain.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Or, to quote Gilbert & Sullivan, "If everybody's somebody, then no-one's anybody."

That doesn´t make sense. But as you didn´t want to contribute anything anyway... whatever.

 

[gizmo33]

In 3.5e, players would think along the terms of CR--that was easily solved with tossing in higher CR monsters. But in 4e, there's just so many second chances that even more powerful monsters just don't scare the PCs like they should.

If you can't kill the party with monsters then IMO you're not trying. If your players aren't scared by things that can kill them then there's not much you can do about that. Maybe they don't care about their characters. If you were able to easily solve the problem by increasing CR then you can do the equivalent thing in 4E. If your 1st level PCs can kill Orcus then I think there's a serious problem. Short of that, I'm not sure where this "so many second chances" thing is really relevant. Give the 1st level PCs lots of second chances against Orcus and see how it goes.