Level Up (A5E) My 4 level 9 PCs took out the CR 17 Emerald Dragon!

[lichmaster]

Encounter difficulty is not a monster tag and I never suggested it was. Where are you getting that idea from? "Deadly" is one of the encounter difficulties in the DMG. It is not a monster tag. Is there something you are misunderstand? You keep seeming to think I have applied some "tag" to monsters. I have not.

I was referring to "Epic". That's what I was referring to as a tag. The table you linked refers to "Epic" monsters, which are unofficial both in o5e and LU.

I don't think you are understanding the "solution" at all. It has nothing to do with monsters other than selecting the correct one.

On this we agree, but we disagree on the final result.

Again, it is not a monster tag. I have clarified that several times, but you still seem to ignore it. Epic was 3PP made term to describe an encounter more challenging than "deadly." The author used the daily XP budget from the DMG to develop the table. It uses the RAW numbers from the DMG, just not the DMG encounter builder. It is explained in the link.

I checked it. It seems a very convoluted way to get a TPK (as the link itself declares), but with the pleasure of crunching some numbers first. Using the entire "daily budget" on a single monster does not make for an epic encounter, but a carnage. Still, some people might like it, I guess..

It is not something that can be right or wrong. It uses the DMG XP numbers in a different way, that is all. However, you seem to not understand what I am talking about, so I can't really put a lot of value in your analysis of its accuracy.

It seems pointless to me to use 3PP material based on o5e in a discussion about LU. We really seem not to be talking in the same language, unfortunately.

Well you never said how many PCs, so that is big red flag.

That's irrelevant if the monster has a CR so much higher than the PCs. That's the entire point! Is the concept of an "impossible" encounter in LU, and to get that you simply need a monster whose CR is 1.5x the average PC level.

For a solo monster I simply check its CR against the level and number of PCs it is facing.

• f the PCs are at the threshold, I know it will be a difficult battle.
• IF the PCs are below the threshold I know it could be a TPC
• If the PCs are above the threshold I know it is likely not a TPC

The threshold doesn't make for an encounter that will be "difficult", but an almost guaranteed TPK.
I made an example using o5e monsters and this table. According to it, 5 lvl 5 pcs should have an elite ("difficult" in your words) battle against a CR 16 monster. For me, that is a guaranteed TPK.

 

[Vin St. John]

I’m just using old language. The rules of unconscious (Aka sleeping) give you auto crits if you hit with melee attacks…that’s the “coup de grace”

What is not clear is when that condition ends, after the attackers first attack, after the attackers round, after the entire surprise round, etc. I went for the attackers round as it made sense that you couldn’t wake up to stop the literally sword strike that is coming right after the other, but there is no actual rule for it

I think your interpretation is reasonable and simple, so it's good. One other approach is to copy the rules found in the "Sleep" spell:

Slumbering creatures stay asleep until the spell ends, they take damage, or someone uses an action to physically wake them.

By that rule, you'd roll initiative the moment the player went to attack, you'd use the A5E rules for letting the attacking player get ahead of the enemy, you'd rule that the enemy is Surprised and therefore can't take their actions on their turn in the first round, BUT the enemy would be awake starting the moment they take the first hit. Additional melee attacks would still get Advantage (hitting a prone target).

 

[Tonguez]

Your players planned well and got into the dragons lair so good for them, personally I would have had a lot more traps and alarms around than you described though, making it a lot harder to get in and I certainly would have used etherealness (8 hour duration) to allow the dragon an even better hiding place.

i do agree with you interpretation of Silence overcoming the dragons wail though.

 

[dave2008]

I was referring to "Epic". That's what I was referring to as a tag. The table you linked refers to "Epic" monsters, which are unofficial both in o5e and LU.

It is not referring to epic monsters, but epic encounters. I have said that several times.

I checked it. It seems a very convoluted way to get a TPK (as the link itself declares), but with the pleasure of crunching some numbers first. Using the entire "daily budget" on a single monster does not make for an epic encounter, but a carnage.

First, the article says 50-100%. One of my issues with it actually. I better approach would be to be closer to 50% at lower levels and then raise it at higher levels. Once past 8 lvl +/- a one shot kill is unlikely.

Also, whether something is "epic" or "carnage" is in the eye of the beholder and they are not mutually exclusive either.

It seems pointless to me to use 3PP material based on o5e in a discussion about LU. We really seem not to be talking in the same language, unfortunately.

Why? You can use a 3PP O5e adventure or monster with LU and vice versa. I mean, LU is a 3PP 5e product itself. That is one of things that is great about the 5e-verse you can mix and match of these wonderful ideas.

That's irrelevant if the monster has a CR so much higher than the PCs. That's the entire point! Is the concept of an "impossible" encounter in LU, and to get that you simply need a monster whose CR is 1.5x the average PC level.

You use a simple equation like 1.5 x lvl or even the table I'm suggesting to get an "impossible" encounter. I mean, the OP is about how a group of PCs trashed an "impossible" encounter. The dragon was CR 17 and your "impossible" encounter would by CR 13.5 (1.5 x 9). Yet they beat it and did so easily. So, in the OPs case, the table I suggested was more accurate than the suggestion of 1.5x avg. level.

Again, the point is to have another tool in your tool box. The DM has to determine what works best for them and their group. But if 1.5x lvl is not cutting it (as in the OP), then maybe take a look at the epic encounter table.

The threshold doesn't make for an encounter that will be "difficult", but an almost guaranteed TPK.

Everyone wants different things. For me, if there isn't a chance of a TP in a combat oriented encounter, it is not a challenging combat encounter. I like my boss fights to be challenging. Not every fight, but there are times when there should be a good chance of failure - that is what heroes are for after all!

I made an example using o5e monsters and this table. According to it, 5 lvl 5 pcs should have an elite ("difficult" in your words) battle against a CR 16 monster. For me, that is a guaranteed TPK.

Experience tells me otherwise; however, I don't think that table works as well at lower levels. My group is lvl 17 now so I sometimes forget that as I wasn't even aware of the table until they were lvl 13 or something. If I get some free time I may make a new table that smooths out some of the wrinkles in that table.

 

[lichmaster]

You use a simple equation like 1.5 x lvl or even the table I'm suggesting to get an "impossible" encounter.

It's not me it's clearly written in A5E rules...

I mean, the OP is about how a group of PCs trashed an "impossible" encounter. The dragon was CR 17 and your "impossible" encounter would by CR 13.5 (1.5 x 9). Yet they beat it and did so easily. So, in the OPs case, the table I suggested was more accurate than the suggestion of 1.5x avg. level.

The point is, that was barely an encounter, due to the surprise round and the 3 crits in a row from the PCs side. If the dragon even got one entire turn, the group would have probably been toast

 

[dave2008]

It's not me it's clearly written in A5E rules...

Yes, and the OP proved that is an unreliable guideline. That is the only relevant point. One guideline cannot fit all tables.

The point is, that was barely an encounter, due to the surprise round and the 3 crits in a row from the PCs side. If the dragon even got one entire turn, the group would have probably been toast

I agree it could have gone bad for the PCS, but it didn't. I can't tell you what works for you and your group. Everyone is different. Heck I have had a group that was challenged by the DMG encounter guidelines and another that laughs at the 1.5x level guide of LU. The DM needs to tune things to their group, I just offered a tool that has helped me so that it may help others.