Level Up (A5E) My 4 level 9 PCs took out the CR 17 Emerald Dragon!

I think it just shows once again how swingy the CR system can be, ESPECIALLY in the context of surprise round. surprise round is literally the most powerful advantage you can get in 5e, and so anytime that's an option the CR system kind of goes out the window.
I think the CR system does not, and can not, consider also the surprise round factor and everything else your players may do before the combat starts for both parts.
Your group was aided not just by the suprise rounds, but by the 3 crits in a row.
The swinginess is not in the CR, it's in the d20 system itself.
 

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Stalker0

Legend
Your group was aided not just by the suprise rounds, but by the 3 crits in a row.
The swinginess is not in the CR, it's in the d20 system itself.
Quite true. Now the first two crits were the coup de grace (is there anything formal that says when a sleeping creature is no longer considered helpless and subject to coup de graces? I ruled it was after the player's turn, but I could see some people rule after a single attack, not sure if there is anything official), but then the rogue crit of course added a good amount of damage.

I can respect why onednd is trying out a new surprised condition (advantage on initiative checks) rather than a surprise round. While surprise as a round makes a lot of narrative sense, it is SOOOOOO swingy for either monsters or players.
 

In Level up, a CR 18 encounter is a hard challenge for 4 9th levels, and 20 is deadly. However, levelup also notes that "any challenge with a creature whose CR is 1.5 x the maximum character level is an impossible challenge"


So technically anything above CR 13 should hit that criteria.
well, technically it's any challenge with a creature whose CR is above 1.5 x the maximum average character level, so the cutoff point for a level 9 party is CR 14, not 13. not that it matters here since the emerald dragon is CR 17, but...you know.
is there anything formal that says when a sleeping creature is no longer considered helpless and subject to coup de graces?
i'm pretty sure helpless and coup-de-grace aren't even rules in level up.
 

Quite true. Now the first two crits were the coup de grace (is there anything formal that says when a sleeping creature is no longer considered helpless and subject to coup de graces? I ruled it was after the player's turn, but I could see some people rule after a single attack, not sure if there is anything official), but then the rogue crit of course added a good amount of damage.
I think you're either homebrewing or using rules from previous editions. There's no coup the grace or helpless condition in 5e or in LU. The closest I can find is unconscious.
I can respect why onednd is trying out a new surprised condition (advantage on initiative checks) rather than a surprise round. While surprise as a round makes a lot of narrative sense, it is SOOOOOO swingy for either monsters or players.
The combat is swingy for two related reasons:
1) the resolution mechanic is handled by a single dice roll, which results in a flat distribution. Exceptional results (for good or bad) are as likely as the average result. This can create very frustrating situations where it's not that uncommon for players to roll 1 several times in a row. Or where the monster crits 2 or 3 times in a row. In this case, the players were lucky and the monster really wasn't
2) On top of that, monsters' hp are sized wrt some kind of average PC damage, and the damage they inflict is only specified in terms of average damage (assuming they hit). While this may seem a good idea, it really doesn't handle extreme results, which are far from uncommon. An average DPS calculation is ok for statistical purposes, but not to adjudicate how quickly things can go bad with a single good or bad roll
 

dave2008

Legend
What's this table? It seems wrong (or at least not compliant with LU) in many aspects.
Also, normally 4 level 9 PCs have very little chance against a CR20 monster, barring extreme luck, surprise rounds and excellent preparation
I provide a link the tread it was from and that thread as the link to the primary source.

It is not an LU table. However, O5e and A5e characters are approximately equal in power so the table holds. The table is based on % of daily XP from the DMG.
 

I provide a link the tread it was from and that thread as the link to the primary source.

It is not an LU table. However, O5e and A5e characters are approximately equal in power so the table holds. The table is based on % of daily XP from the DMG.
They redid the entire CR computation and monsters precisely because o5e's guidelines and monsters were completely messed up...
Elite monsters are not a thing neither in o5e nor LU, so it's hard to judge the value of that table.
That said, there's no way a reasonably statted normal monster of CR 8 can be a match for a party of 7 level 1 characters, or for a CR 16 monster vs 5 L5 pcs, let alone an "elite" monster...
 

dave2008

Legend
They redid the entire CR computation and monsters precisely because o5e's guidelines and monsters were completely messed up...
Yes and no. I'm not going to get into it here, but I am not convinced by Paul's monster CR calculation methods.
Elite monsters are not a thing neither in o5e nor LU, so it's hard to judge the value of that table.
Actually "Elite" monsters are a thing in A5e (see Great Wyrm dragons and others) and they are not part of O5e or the table I presented. The tables as about "Epic" encounters, not elite monsters. Epic encounters are a step above "Deadly" encounters. I am happy to explain it, and the math behind it, if you want. Or you can link to the source material in the link I provided in my first post.
That said, there's no way a reasonably statted normal monster of CR 8 can be a match for a party of 7 level 1 characters, or for a CR 16 monster vs 5 L5 pcs,...
I will agree at low level that chart is less useful because of the danger of one-hit kills. This is not much of a danger after level 7-8 and for some groups a bit lower. If I made the table,* I would take that into account as it is pretty easy to do. I am happy to make a revised table if you like.

*If it wasn't clear, I did not develop the table. It was from another person's blog. The original article is linked in the thread I made discussing the table (which was linked in my first post).
...let alone an "elite" monster...
Again, nothing a said was about "elite" monsters. The table is for standard O5e & A5e monsters.

Regarding the
 

Yes and no. I'm not going to get into it here, but I am not convinced by Paul's monster CR calculation methods.
That's a different topic altogether.
FWIW, it's leaps and bounds better than what WotC published, both in terms of guidelines and as monsters. It seems WotC may backtrack a bit on their own approach with the next edition of D&D, where something they call "iconic" is strictly stronger than other spells/creatures of the same level and CR, but even then, experience as a DM is the only thing that matters.

Actually "Elite" monsters are a thing in A5e (see Great Wyrm dragons and others) and they are not part of O5e or the table I presented. The tables as about "Epic" encounters, not elite monsters. Epic encounters are a step above "Deadly" encounters. I am happy to explain it, and the math behind it, if you want. Or you can link to the source material in the link I provided in my first post.
I'm curious about it, but I don't recall anything above deadly in o5e, especially as a tag to a monster. To me it seems the wrong solution to a problem in handling monsters and generating encounter.
There was an Elite template in the old, excellent Trailblazer, but interestingly the only thing it was doing under the hood was multiplying it's HP, and it did work brilliantly.
I will agree at low level that chart is less useful because of the danger of one-hit kills. This is not much of a danger after level 7-8 and for some groups a bit lower. If I made the table,* I would take that into account as it is pretty easy to do. I am happy to make a revised table if you like.
Honestly, and with all due respect, I really don't find that table useful, especially because I cannot agree with the base principle or raw numbers presented there. I don't need it. It's the wrong tool for fixing a different problem, i.e. many new DMs don't know how to challenge their players and look for "bigger numbers" as if it was a solution. It's not their fault, but I don't think this approach does anything good except escalating monsters and Pcs power.
*If it wasn't clear, I did not develop the table. It was from another person's blog. The original article is linked in the thread I made discussing the table (which was linked in my first post).
I cannot find any link in the post where you shared the table. That said, online I find a lot of stuff. Some good, a lot mediocre, and some outright terrible.
Again, nothing a said was about "elite" monsters. The table is for standard O5e & A5e monsters.
My bad, I wrote elite instead of Epic. Neither are defined officially in the MM or DMG, we only have legendary in o5e as far as I remember.

That said, again, for standard o5e monsters it's most likely wrong.

Take any standard CR 15 monster (there are 2 adult dragons, a mummy lord, and the purple worm). Look not just at their damage, but also their other abilities. Do you really, really think a party of level 5 PCs has any hope, if the monster is run even just decently?
Of course if they just stand there as meat bags, a party may be able to take them down, but that's not how most monsters should run.

A dragon should fly and use a lot of flyby attacks, breathing on the opponents and likely taking one or 2 down every round and lazily flying around for its breath to recharge. Or even use its melee attacks, but just to toy on the opponents.
The mummy lord has some seriously dangerous spells (insect plague is devastating on spellcasters) and can become a whirlwhind, becoming immune to ALL damage and most conditions. On top of that it can use dreadful glare, likely disabling melee brutes with low wis saves
The purple worm can bite and swallow one creature per round, which on top of dealing damage, makes the target blinded and restrained. And then there's the stinger, which is a very likely one shotting machine for level 5 pcs...
 

dave2008

Legend
That's a different topic altogether.
FWIW, it's leaps and bounds better than what WotC published, both in terms of guidelines and as monsters.
I will disagree with the bolded part and leave it at that.
I'm curious about it, but I don't recall anything above deadly in o5e, especially as a tag to a monster.
Encounter difficulty is not a monster tag and I never suggested it was. Where are you getting that idea from? "Deadly" is one of the encounter difficulties in the DMG. It is not a monster tag. Is there something you are misunderstand? You keep seeming to think I have applied some "tag" to monsters. I have not.
To me it seems the wrong solution to a problem in handling monsters and generating encounter.
I don't think you are understanding the "solution" at all. It has nothing to do with monsters other than selecting the correct one.
There was an Elite template in the old, excellent Trailblazer, but interestingly the only thing it was doing under the hood was multiplying it's HP, and it did work brilliantly.
4e had elites (and solos). Level Up has Elites as well which are the Level Up equivalent of 5e "Mythic" monsters. Here is a Level Up Elite Monster: Great Wyrm Red Dragon You will notice the tags are: "Elite" & "Legendary"
Honestly, and with all due respect, I really don't find that table useful, especially because I cannot agree with the base principle or raw numbers presented there. I don't need it. It's the wrong tool for fixing a different problem, i.e. many new DMs don't know how to challenge their players and look for "bigger numbers" as if it was a solution. It's not their fault, but I don't think this approach does anything good except escalating monsters and Pcs power.
I don't think any one table or encounter building guidelines are a failsafe way to design an encounter. It is simply a tool that can help. I find in 5e and LevelUp I don't need to worry about balancing encounters at all, so I don't really understand why people make such a fuss over it. However, I have found this table to be quite good a predicting a challenging solo monster encounter.
I cannot find any link in the post where you shared the table. That said, online I find a lot of stuff. Some good, a lot mediocre, and some outright terrible.
The link is in the first paragraph (after DM Dave - which is not me by the way):

This probably old news to some, but today I stumbled across this article from DMDave: How to Create Epic Encounters
My bad, I wrote elite instead of Epic. Neither are defined officially in the MM or DMG, we only have legendary in o5e as far as I remember.
Again, it is not a monster tag. I have clarified that several times, but you still seem to ignore it. Epic was 3PP made term to describe an encounter more challenging than "deadly." The author used the daily XP budget from the DMG to develop the table. It uses the RAW numbers from the DMG, just not the DMG encounter builder. It is explained in the link.
That said, again, for standard o5e monsters it's most likely wrong.
It is not something that can be right or wrong. It uses the DMG XP numbers in a different way, that is all. However, you seem to not understand what I am talking about, so I can't really put a lot of value in your analysis of its accuracy.
Take any standard CR 15 monster (there are 2 adult dragons, a mummy lord, and the purple worm). Look not just at their damage, but also their other abilities. Do you really, really think a party of level 5 PCs has any hope, if the monster is run even just decently?
Of course if they just stand there as meat bags, a party may be able to take them down, but that's not how most monsters should run.
Well you never said how many PCs, so that is big red flag.

However, a simple encounter difficulty system (5e or LevelUP) cannot account for everything a DM can do with a monster(s) or players can do with their PCs. That is not the purpose of such a table. Like I said, it is a tool a DM can use. I don't remember what DM Dave say about it, but how I have used it is as follows:

For a solo monster I simply check its CR against the level and number of PCs it is facing.
  • f the PCs are at the threshold, I know it will be a difficult battle.
  • IF the PCs are below the threshold I know it could be a TPC
  • If the PCs are above the threshold I know it is likely not a TPC
That is it, and that is all I need. I find it works really well for that. But everyone's group and DM style are different. You should tweak any encounter balancing guidelines in accordance with your DM style and your PCs style as well.
 

Stalker0

Legend
i'm pretty sure helpless and coup-de-grace aren't even rules in level up.
I’m just using old language. The rules of unconscious (Aka sleeping) give you auto crits if you hit with melee attacks…that’s the “coup de grace”

What is not clear is when that condition ends, after the attackers first attack, after the attackers round, after the entire surprise round, etc. I went for the attackers round as it made sense that you couldn’t wake up to stop the literally sword strike that is coming right after the other, but there is no actual rule for it
 

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