My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games

[Maxperson]

Only if you insist that creation and board set-up are the same thing. Which I don't. The notion that placing the pieces on a chess board is somehow some sort of act of creating a shared fiction at the table is ludicrous to me. As usual [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], you are working from a really, really different dictionary from me.

The Strawman is strong with this one. How about you respond to my argument, instead of one of your own.

 

[Maxperson]

I think we're actually saying the same thing. You say, "establish a shared fiction", I say "scenario creation". It's the same thing. Without that step, whatever you want to call it, there is no game. You say to the players, "what do you do", without establishing any scenario, and nothing happens.

Yes, but when he says what do you do and the answer is both scenario creation AND game play, there is no prior step of creation.

 

[Maxperson]

And, therein lies a big difference. If you strip out the scenario creation guidelines from an RPG, an RPG is still quite playable. As proof of that, I'd point to any number of RPG's out there that don't have scenario creation guidelines. At least, not any mechanical ones. You certainly don't have to reference the D&D dungeon creation section at all to create a dungeon crawl for D&D. The section is there to provide advice, sure, but, it's not required.

Creating a scenario without rules on creation is like adding free parking money to Monopoly. You can do it just fine, but it's not a part of the rules. What RPGs have no rules/guidelines for scenario creation? I've never seen one.

 

[Hussar]

Creating a scenario without rules on creation is like adding free parking money to Monopoly. You can do it just fine, but it's not a part of the rules. What RPGs have no rules/guidelines for scenario creation? I've never seen one.

D&D 5e has guidelines and suggestions, but, that's about it. You'd have to go quite a distance to extrapolate from what's in the 5e DMG and create Eberron or Forgotten Realms. And, that's just the setting. Only referencing the 5e DMG, let's see you create The War of the Lance. Or Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Heck, let's see you create 1e Tomb of Horrors only referencing the 1e DMG.

That's the point. The guidelines are just there to get you started. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] mentions Basic/Expert D&D. That whole point of that system was to teach people how to create their own games. You couldn't possibly create the Isle of Dread from what was in the Moldvay Expert rules. That's WHY Isle of Dread was shipped with the rules. To teach you HOW to DM. Because, unlike any other games, you MUST create the shared fiction/scenario in order to play.

Heck, even [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s example proves this. You have to go through this elaborate set-up, just to get started, which includes actually CREATING material. You can't just play. You must CREATE. It's that act of CREATING THE SCENARIO that differentiates RPG's from other games.

The fact that you reduce RPG scenario creation to adding money to Free Parking shows pretty clearly that you're missing the point. You don't HAVE to add money to Free Parking to play Monopoly. You can, fair enough, but, it's not required. It IS required to create the shared fiction, what I'm calling scenario, in order to play an RPG.

 

[Maxperson]

D&D 5e has guidelines and suggestions, but, that's about it. You'd have to go quite a distance to extrapolate from what's in the 5e DMG and create Eberron or Forgotten Realms. And, that's just the setting. Only referencing the 5e DMG, let's see you create The War of the Lance. Or Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Heck, let's see you create 1e Tomb of Horrors only referencing the 1e DMG.

So the rules do provide how to create a scenario. Got it. The 5e DMG is pretty fantastic about how to go about it. And I could use those DMGs to create all of that. The D&D rules DMG/PHB/MM have the bulk of what I need to create any of those thing.

If you're suggesting that every last possible thing that could be placed into a scenario has to be in the DMG in order for the DMG to have rules/guidelines to create a scenario, you are engaging in a Nirvana Fallacy.

That's the point. The guidelines are just there to get you started. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] mentions Basic/Expert D&D. That whole point of that system was to teach people how to create their own games. You couldn't possibly create the Isle of Dread from what was in the Moldvay Expert rules. That's WHY Isle of Dread was shipped with the rules. To teach you HOW to DM. Because, unlike any other games, you MUST create the shared fiction/scenario in order to play.

Yes, you have to set-up the game by creating a scenario if you don't use [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s style of play. You don't actually need anything other than the base books to do it, though. Well, other than dice, pen and paper.

Heck, even [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s example proves this. You have to go through this elaborate set-up, just to get started, which includes actually CREATING material. You can't just play. You must CREATE. It's that act of CREATING THE SCENARIO that differentiates RPG's from other games.

He IS just playing. The creation comes as a part of play and isn't separate from it.

The fact that you reduce RPG scenario creation to adding money to Free Parking shows pretty clearly that you're missing the point.

I'll counter with the fact that you don't see how inventing rules is inventing rules shows that you're the one missing the point. This is further strengthened by you being literally the only one here who is on your side of things in this discussion.

You don't HAVE to add money to Free Parking to play Monopoly. You can, fair enough, but, it's not required. It IS required to create the shared fiction, what I'm calling scenario, in order to play an RPG.

The point is, if you strip out the rules on creating a scenario, you cannot play the RPG with just the rules. You have to create rules to go by, just like people created free parking rules. How many encounters should be had? How are traps used? Which monsters should be used to fight the PCs? How should treasure be placed? Do magic items exist? And many, many more questions have to be answered before you can create a scenario.

 

[Hussar]

Heh, did you actually read [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s quote? I'll repeat it here:

At the end, you should have a situation not easily untangled and about to turn really bad. Some of the characters will be able to achieve their interests, concievably, but only by fighting and meaning it, and only by taking other characters’ best interests away. Dedicated rivals, aggressive enemies, and alliances fragile at best.

It’s time to start the game.

Oh, look at that, before you can start play, you have to create a scenario. Note, that whole "create" part. You can't play the game without creating the scenario.

I most certainly CAN play virtually any board game without creating a single thing. That's the point you're missing, [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. Not that you can or cannot create material for a board game. Of course you can. But, you are never required to. You don't have to. You can play a board game, straight from the rules, start to finish.

You simply cannot do it in an RPG. Playing an RPG ALWAYS requires you to create the scenario. And that scenario is the game that you will be playing. It will be idiosyncratic to your table. But, at no point can you begin playing an RPG without first creating the scenario. It's impossible. Three examples now [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s brought up and every single one agrees with my point - scenario creation must precede play.

You can play board games without creating a single thing.

Thus, RPG's are game creation engines. That's what separates them from other games. The fact that you MUST create the game that you're actually going to play before you play it. It might be days or weeks before, it might be a couple of minutes before, but, it ALWAYS comes first. Whether you want to call it shared fiction, or scenario or event or whatever, it doesn't matter. Whatever you want to call it, it MUST be created, mostly from scratch, before you can actually play an RPG.

 

[Maxperson]

I most certainly CAN play virtually any board game without creating a single thing.

Awesome. Now find someone here that said that you can't.

That's the point you're missing, [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. Not that you can or cannot create material for a board game. Of course you can. But, you are never required to. You don't have to. You can play a board game, straight from the rules, start to finish.

I'm not missing anything. What you are missing, is that anything you do to prepare for the game is a type of game set-up. Creating is part of setting up to play the game. Pulling out a board is part of setting up the game. Hell, even cleaning off the table so that you have space is part of setting up the game. There are three aspects to games. Rules, set-up and play.

Thus, RPG's are game creation engines. That's what separates them from other games. The fact that you MUST create the game that you're actually going to play before you play it. It might be days or weeks before, it might be a couple of minutes before, but, it ALWAYS comes first. Whether you want to call it shared fiction, or scenario or event or whatever, it doesn't matter. Whatever you want to call it, it MUST be created, mostly from scratch, before you can actually play an RPG.

RPGs are games with rules. That you create is only a much more involved part of set-up.

 

[Hussar]

So, now you are equating creating an entirely new scenario with cleaning off the table? Yeah, we're not going to agree here. That you have to create is the whole point of calling an RPG a game creation engine. Which differentiates from other games where you are not required to create anything in order to play.

 

[Maxperson]

So, now you are equating creating an entirely new scenario with cleaning off the table? Yeah, we're not going to agree here. That you have to create is the whole point of calling an RPG a game creation engine. Which differentiates from other games where you are not required to create anything in order to play.

Because you're deliberately limiting your vision. My argument is set-up=set-up=set-up. That's an indisputable fact. Something always equals itself. Always. You're deliberately twisting my argument away from set-up = set-up, into scope = smaller scope or type of set-up = other type of set-up, and then arguing against it. Captain Strawman you've proven yourself to be in this thread.

How about you shock me and for once, actually respond to what I'm saying and not what you want me to have said.

 

[MichaelSomething]

If you think D&D is a game, then you must object to RPG Maker not being defined as a game...