My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
Two things.
1. If your DM decides against you, just say "forget this law stuff," become chaotic good and take the holy liberator prestige class. You would recover a number of your paladin abilities (and the mount would actually be better since you can take other prestige classes and it still advances).

2. One might argue that the act is bad--not because it is objectively wrong for child molesters to die but rather because it deprives the populace of a chance to see justice in action. Learning that a sicko is dead is one thing. People say "whatever" or "he had it coming" or "the paladin only killed him because he was a half-orc; he was probably reaching for his wallet to get his ID not his zipper when the paladin killed him. You know what kind of racist pigs these paladins are." However, if there is a chance for his guilt to be determined lawfully and for him to be hanged or stoned by the community instead, the communal action of punishing the pervert would more strongy inculcate aversion to such acts and the publicness of his execution would serve as a more clear and intimidating message to others with similar urges that "such actions are not tolerated here--suppress your perverted desires or die." In short, by killing him alone, out of hand and in private, your paladin passed up a chance to do more good.

You may also have undermined respect for the law and other positive tendencies in the town. If it becomes public knowledge that "paladin X" killed someone in his own home--with or without good reason, they weren't there so they just have your word on that--it will likely be seen that paladin X is above the law. Now this could either lead others to behave as if they were above the law if the general reaction to your paladin's actions are commendation or to frustration with the law not doing anything if those who wish to foment dissent and impede your effectiveness are successful at casting doubt on your actions. (If I were an evil cult leader in the town, I would find some "witnesses" to the act and ensure that people heard a story about you looting the guy's body while the girl cried next to it. I'd make sure some of them said they saw you go in and cut the guy's head off without ever saying anything or giving any warning--did they hear what the guy said beforehand? Of course not. Defending yourself from accusations of murder would reduce your effectiveness a lot more than spreading false accusations would reduce their effectiveness. If generally accepted, it would also form a base for generating public dissatisfaction with paladins and your character's religion in general). If the law does nothing about it, of course, the evil cultists can continue by saying, "and what is the law doing about this injustice? Nothing. So-called paladins walk into innocent mens' homes and kill them for their money and the justice system does nothing about it. How can you trust that justice system with anything else?" And, of course, if the law does decide to do something to you, that will undermine respect for the law as well. (Now the evil cultist says "that guy had it coming and look what the "justice" system is doing to a paladin who did the right thing. How can you trust this "justice" system to prosecute evil cultists when it's punishing paladins for doing good?)

Now if you have a viking style justice system in this area, you're in luck. Just walk outside, announce that you killed the bastard and pay 70 gp or whatever the weregild is set at to his family. And then you're fine.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

BlackMoria

First Post
There is three issues of concern in this Paladin debate. Issue 1: Good vs evil. Issue 2: Laws. I am not referring to Law vs Chaos, but judicial law. Issue 3: Honour.

Issue 1 - is a child molester considered evil? A subjective evaluation and a thorny issue. Some will say yes, some will say no - so it boils down to what is considered evil for the society at large and for the paladin's faith.

Issue 2 - this being a FR campaign, the matter of law is dependant on where you are. If this took place in a bar somewhere in Cormyr, the Silver Marches, Waterdeep or the scores of places in the realms which have codifed laws, the paladin has overstepped his authority. He must serve the good but also, must uphold the law. If a law exists to deal with rape of children, then the Paladin is honour bond to act within the framework of the law.

If this took place in Skullport, Calimshan, Thay or the scores of places which don't have codified laws or justice can be 'bought' (namely, law favors who has the most money or influence), the paladin has not overstepped his authority. He has upheld a 'higher' law - a law of fair justice for all.

Issue 3 - Now the question of if it is dishonourable for a paladin to slay someone from behind. Almost all real world chivalry requires a person of honour to act honourably to those who warrant honour. A knight of old was not required to act honourably to every person. If a enemy knight act honourably or more correctly, didn't act dishonourably, the knight was required to treat his foe with honour. If a person, regardless of station acted dishonourably, he was considered a churl, a person of no honour and the knight was NOT required to treat that person with honour or respect, since the offender didn't warrant honour or respect.

I can make the case that a raper of children has no honour and in the eyes of the paladin, not worthy of any honour-protocol. And therefore, being expendiently being dispatched, even from behind, is all the child molester deserved. Of course, honour is a subjective thing and other posters may disagree.

In brief, as in all paladin discussions, the issue is not clear cut. The solution to this issue, IMO, is - Is the molester considered evil? Is there enforceable laws that are just for the crime? Does the molester warrant being treated with honour? If the DM /players can answer that - then what action the paladin merits for his actions should be easier to adjudicate.

Another way to resolve this - how would the deity in question react to such a act from a paladin of the faith? If the deity is neutral in reaction of the paladin's actions or approves - then no foul. If the deity disapproves, then the paladin has 'sinned' and penance is required.

My two coppers....
 

Sejs

First Post
The paladin is the instrument of that punishment. That's their JOB.

Damn straight.

The Cleric's job is to redeem. That's why they get the Atonement spell.

The Paladin's job is to punish. That's why they get Smite Evil.
 

Zimri

First Post
Numion said:
Which would be more important: protecting the child from reliving the abuse in a courtroom trial, or protecting the paladins honor?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------The Paladin quickly acted as a Jury and Judge, then as an Executioner. If we're into "iffing", what if the perp had been warned (so that the Paladin wouldn't backstab), and he quickdrew a knife and killed the child (only witness). Thus considering the situation the Paladin acted in the safest and most protective way in regards to the innocent present (the child).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
That the child saw the decapitation isn't that severe. In those times she would've seen it regardless if the trial punished the man to death.

I've read the whole thread, but where has it been said that a Paladin can't attack from ambush? In this case it was tactically a superior move, since the Paladin could immediately eliminate any further harm to the child. Protecting the child is the number one priority here, right? Not protecting the Paladins honor.

The paladin's honor as it is (or should be) a huge part of what makes him who he is. But neither needed to be in jeopardy.

Grabbing the perp and hauling or tossing him away from the child negates the "what if he quickdrew and killed her" argument

Seeing a decapitation isn't severe for a 10 year old ? Having your now dead and headless abuser fall on to your tied body spewing blood all over you isn't traumatizing ? I am pretty sure there were a lot of people traumatized recently by watching a video of a decapitation I am pretty sure this would be worse, and she doesn't have the option to look away.

The move may have been tactically superior but it was also dishonorable the end does not ustify the means. Protecting the child would be accomplished by dragging or tossing the perp from the room and then dealing with it and then the paladin would have remained honorable.

Wulf Ratbane said:
My instinct tells me that either your DM doesn't like you, or he doesn't like paladins. He set that clumsy trap for you for a reason
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, this is what makes it seem to me all the more likely that the DM had it in for the paladin (character or player, no difference).

He trolled the bait right past the paladin. A child molester. Caught in the act.

By the time he'd set up this whole scenario, the "warning" was almost rhetorical. I don't think the DM really expected the paladin to do anything other than what the paladin did.

I'd be curious to know what would have happened if the paladin hadn't dealt swift justice.

What new depradations would this DM have heaped on him?

"The child molester gets out on bail and murders the child in retaliation. You failed to act. You lose your powers!"

Just a hunch. The whole thing stinks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bull----.

There is evil in the world. Irredeemable evil.

A paladin should exult when an evil creature is slain. The cause of Good has been served.Again with this notion that violence and killing is always evil... Guys. Come on. You aren't redeeming that mind flayer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clumsy trap ? Come now numerous posters have seen more than a couple viable ways to have handled the encounter without bringing the paladin's (and his companion's, church's and God's) reputation into the mix.

Yup he trolled the bait of a suspiscious stranger slinking off to a back room because that NEVER happens in a bar. The warning seemed like a DM warning a player that there would be

consequences for killing an unarmed, unaware, commoner. We can't know what would have happened ahd the paladin acted with more honor. If this was a test than the paladin failed.

Irredeemable evil ? like say perhaps a Drow ? The cause of good is not served when Good men and women replace that which is moral with that which is easy

We are too redeeming a mind flayer 3 to be exact. A mindflayer we killed had 3 babies in an extradimensional space he was carrying when we killed him. There was an entire game sessions worth of debate among the players as to what we should do. End result the Psion that got the robe is a father, we are feeding them eels for now, and will care for them until they can care for themselves. They will be taught by us and by a tutor at a school we will be setting up for orphans. These children are not evil until they perpetrate an evil act willingly.

jasper said:
What next if Demigorgon is chowing down on the orphaniage. You Paladin must stand in the middle of street and call him out like Matt Dillion

Umm no see a demigorgon chowing down on an orphanage is a clear and present danger to life and limb of orphans and those that care for them. As heinous as the intended rape was (and ohh believe me I think it was) the victim wasn't going to be worse off for the paladin subduing or tossing away the perp.

dargoth3 said:
Was the girl potentially in danger if the Paladin issued a challenge? Ie could the sicko have taken the girl hostage if a warning had been issued? Possably, I think its quite likely that the Sicko would have threatened the girls life in order to escape justice

Kind of hard for him to threaten her if as your warning you picked him up and hauled or tossed him from the room. He won't be scampering away either not in a bar filled with the paladins companions.

Torak Stormweaver said:
You have an evil person going to rape an inocent child again... do you say "I am here to end your evil.. turn around and have at it with someone your own size..." and let the evil guy grab the girl and use her as leverage or worse yet kill the girl out of spite so there is no actual victim... NOPE you take the options in ... killing the man before he can touch the girl is a primal reaction to a dire situation.

Grab him and haul or toss him away from the child while he is unaware of your presence. The girl is saved from the rape, saved from retalliation for him knowing you were there and your honor is intact. Then you accuse him of his crimes tell him he can choose to surrender his life to you, surrender to the town magistrate, or choose trial by combat. If this is the sort of place where his actions won't be met with a justice that is similar to your deity's version of justice option 2 can be stricken from the list.

billd91 said:
And how is acting in a way that is not the epitome of honor an evil act? I certainly don't think it is. Would a CG character be penalized for this action as if it were an evil act? I don't think so. So why should a paladin?

No a CG character would not be punished. Acting swiftly without forethought is a chaotic thing. Killing a rapist is not an evil thing. Doing it from behind is not honorable. Paladins are held to a stricter code of ethics and morality than a CG or even LG fighter.

firelance said:
[Old-Timer]You're telling me. Kids these days. Everything has to be done immediately, at once, in a flash. Can't even wait for the justice system to do its work. No patience. Now it's all these instant e-executions. Humph.[/Old-Timer]

Heck can't seem to even just toss the perpetrator away so he doesn't harm the girl anymore then deal with him face to face like an honorable person would. Guy wouldn't even be getting a chance to scramble away through the bar ya know why ... the rest of the party was in the bar. Even if HE didn't notice an armed and armoured paladin sneaking up behind him I am pretty sure the party would have seen the paladin slink off.

D+1 said:
Keep in mind also that in 3.5 there IS NO front or back facing. There is flat-footed (usually but not always associated with being "aware" of your opponents existence) and flanked, but there are no backstabs and attacking from behind. There are simply varying degrees of defensibility.

I am aware that there is no combat facing, however in the description of the event the paladin IS behind the perp. (I also find the idea of no facing laughable we use it but we don't much like it) How can the perp be at the same time looking at the girl and the paladin when they are on opposite sides of him. The rule should be something like there is no combat penalty for not facing (all of) your opponent(s). It was funny we ran into a baslisk and I told my DM okay "I hide my eyes and move behind it" "you can't be behind it there is no facing" "Oh so it has eyes all around it's head then ?"

Herpes Cineplex said:
Incidentally, Zimri, your spirited prosecution of the case against the paladin in this episode makes me wonder: do people actually play paladins in your game? And if so, do you treat them as badly as the player in this case seems to have been treated (you know, setting little traps for them, suddenly springing really restrictive interpretations of their code on them without warning)? Or is this just a devil's advocate gig for you, and you take a more reasonable, less adversarial approach when running your own game?

I am currently playing though I have Dmed in the past (15 years). I have had paladins under me and yes I tested them with morally ambigous situations. If they failed then they atoned and it wasn't that big a deal few did though because we talked about what I interpreted the rules as. My current character (a LN monk) Is fairly upset with the parties Psychic Warrior for killing a foe that surrendered to her (the monk).

I am less adversarial in RL than I am here. As stated I speak with those that play under me and let them know what is expected. If something comes up that wasn't covered and they disagree with me I will listen. I probably won't mitigate entirely any punishment but I will use it to further the storyline, they will end up getting something out of it eventually, and they get to be the focus of a story arc.

That and yeah I like playing devil's advocate but honestly my belief is that if a paladin has not honor he has nothing. I don't think this act was honorable and I can see many better ways out of it that save the girl, punish the perp, and keep the paladin's honor intact.

WOW that was long I wonder how many pages cropped up while I did all that,
 
Last edited:

derverdammte

Explorer
Given the situation, your DM should have had the molester roll a spot check to see whether he was surprised, then had you both roll initiative. The paladin wasn't "sneaking up" on the guy; he just happened to catch him by surprise.

Anyway, I'd commend a paladin for behaving that way in such a situation. It would be downright stupid for him to lose his powers or have to atone for killing a child molester, especially with such clear evidence of habitual offense sitting right in front of him. A paladin who DIDN'T do that IMC would have to atone.
 

Torm

Explorer
Reading through this thread, I'm surprised at how many of you are overthinking this situation - though it is horribly symptomatic of Gen X ers to do so. Let me lay this out one more time, and you try to think as basic and simple as possible:

Sweet little girl has been horribly hurt.

Molester CAUGHT IN ACT.

My conclusion: kill kill kill kill kill.

Law = logic. Logic is excellent for when there's time for it to kick in. If this were real life, there wouldn't have been time for someone to BE "lawful" or "chaotic", there would have been a gut, lizard-brain response. A round is six seconds, people. Would YOU have had time for all this rationalization I'm seeing you type to go through your heads? It sounds to me like ROLEplay was achieved.

Oh, and in case you missed it, I AM the God of Paladins in the character's campaign world, and I already spoke what I thought and gave the Paladin a quest to redeem what little bit of error there was in his zeal. 'Nuff said.

So speaks Torm the True.
 

Zimri

First Post
6 seconds is long enough to decide to swing a sword, or decide to throw him away from the girl.

My gut reaction would honestly be to get perp as far away from victim as possible as quickly as possible. hauling him away does that and saves her from seeing me gut the bastard when he tries to run.
 

Kid Charlemagne

I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Son_of_Thunder said:
Ok, Kid. Here's the problem. His Faerun is not your Faerun is not my Faerun. In my game I've rule zeroed that the charm spell doesn't automatically make you a friend it just gives you a high cha mod. Second, you can only be possessed if you allow it. ie. you have done many evil things and have walked down the path to possession. Domination only happens to the weak willed or in other words those who allow it to happen to them. See where the trouble lies between our thinking.

Well exactly, all games are different. I tried to qualify my points by noting that this only applies to my game - which is why these paladin threads never, ever come to any resolution. All we can do is offer the alternatives that apply to our games and hope that the original poster can make some use of it.

billd91 said:
These are both good ways to completely hamper any paladin in any game by neutralizing his ability to do anything but show angst. It's too easy for a DM to come up with impossibly difficult situations like these to hold the paladin accountable for them all. Good intentions have to count for something even if the road to hell is supposedly paved with them.

There's a reason that quote is so well-known, and this instance is exactly that reason. The key tenet to being a paladin is to always act correctly, even if it puts you at a disadvantage.

True, it's very easy to screw a paladin over - I certainly wouldn't use such a thing often - maybe not even once over a paladin's entire career. On the other hand, if the party was up against a demon known as a deceiver, well, that's what's called for. I'm playing a paladin in a game right now - I personally will feel let down if I am never given the chance to make those tough decisions. I don't want to have to do that every sessions, though.

billd91 said:
Based on this impression, I'd consider you probably as a DM who makes playing a paladin impossible. Your regular campaign may be different, but by coming up with examples like this (and I'm not sure how striking down an illusion could incorporate commiting evil since nothing would have been killed by it in this circumstance) you're telling me that you make life impossible for paladins to do anything decisive.

Withe the illusion, I was thinking something along the lines of "illusion of man about to molest girl over actual father arriving to save daughter." And again, in that instance, the transgression is minor - the paladin has a valid excuse, and the punishment would be correspondingly less.

Again, as I said above, a DM shouldn't do this kind of thing ALL the time, but I feel that every paladin should have one or two opportunities to show his shining example, or to blow it entirely. Again, my view, my game. YMMV.

It all comes down to this, however: Every player intending to play a Paladin should talk to their DM in order to be sure that both parties are on the same page when it comes to this kind of thing. The more detail the better.
 

edbonny

Explorer
Change this paladin's alignment to "lawful hasty."

Killing the bad guy so soon, the paladin never found out about the bad guy's other victims or learned about the harem of young things locked away beneath the tavern that are now starving to death.

Paladin = judge, jury, executioner
OR
Paladin = cop on the beat

You decide!

Ed
 

Quasqueton

First Post
Last night we were playing our Forgotten Realms campaign and my character, a Blackguard, observed this shifty character go to the back room of the tavern we were carousing in. Suspicious, my Blackguard followed the guy and found that he had a 10-year-old girl tied up in the storage room. My DM didn't get into gory description, but he told us, "It is obvious from the girl's physical appearance that she has been sexually violated."

Our campaign is a gritty one. These issues come up.

Then the guy (who still hadn't noticed my Blackguard in the doorway) says, "Now let's teach you another lesson, missy." And he *undid his pants*.
What would a blackguard do in this situation? If he killed the molester, would he loose his powers?

Quasqueton
 

Remove ads

Top