My @!@#! Player abusing Feather Fall

[FireLance]

My main point is this: I think spellcasters have it very easy in d&d. Lots of ways to get a spell off, even in dangerous circumstances (5' step is just gravy). I'm irritated that one of the last remaining ways to accomplish this, which is open to a commoner, is now gone (readying an action). Am I just being a baby?

Vote aye, or nay, and I'll be outta here.

No, I don't think you're being a baby, but I do think you need to expand on your list of options for dealing with spellcasters. Others have already mentioned making Spellcraft checks to determine what spell is being cast. Why should your archers stick to arrows? Alchemist's fire deals continuous damage and can force Concentration checks (over two rounds, too) even if you hit the spellcaster before he casts his spell. Tanglefoot bags can also force Concentration checks by entangling a spellcaster. Give your archers sleep arrows or custom-made daze arrows.

0-level spells and 1st-level spells are cheap but they are resources. Sure your payoff for the ready tactic isn't as great as you hoped it would be (getting the player to spend extra spell slots instead of having a chance to lose another spell being cast), which is why you just need to switch to more effective tactics.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm not, I never claimed to be doing so, and I won't in the future.

ON AVERAGE I USE A "READIED" ACTION PERHAPS ONCE EVERY OTHER BATTLE.

That's an awful lot, especially given the inefficiency of the technique, and the individuals (ie - people with no knowledge of magic) who are doing it.

Frankly, if my DM was having people ready actions against me (not other party members, just me) every other battle, I'd be feeling like you had a grudge against me, and I'd be going to great lengths to make your tactic a waste of time.

That assumes a bunch of stuff, most importantly: that it's OBVIOUS when somebody is readying an action. This is not covered in the rules.

Actually, if I remember correctly it is certainly implied that everyone knows when someone is readying an action.

Especially for something as bloody obvious as shooting a bow at you...

Another rules fuzziness; you CAN explicitely ready a spell interrupt with no ranks of spellcraft and no roll required. You just know a spell is being cast; it's obvious (or something). Will a Fighter4 know the difference bewteen a free action cantrip, feather fall, or glitterdust, within the first millisecond of its casting? IF so, that's one hell of an insightful archer. That's what a lot of people are suggesting, "just have the readied archers wait out the free action spell and hit 'em on the second one." I'm all for making a PC's life difficult, but this beggers the imagination. It's like a Western gunfight, and you are telling one of the gunslingers to "just let him draw and pull the trigger of his revolver, it's probably empty, but when he whips out that pistol, nail him". ? I just can't see a fighter4 20 year old in the middle of combat vs. a wizard of uncertain abilities somehow "waiting out" a free action spell. It's spell. It's what he was waiting for. He fires. Am I nuts?

Well, a free action spell is the time it takes for someone to quickly draw a weapon. A normal spell is almost three seconds long. A full round spell is almost six seconds long. I'd say you're probably safe allowing people to know what sort of action someone is doing.

If anyone can give me a better justification for waiting it out besides "use archers with a lot of spellcraft" (LOADS of them about, and coming across scads of those won't be repetitive will it?) I'd be grateful.

Realise that a fireball isn't that much better than an archer that can slam someone for 25 points of damage per arrow? Or alternatively if you want all your fighters to be trained in the ways of mage fighting, give them the spellcraft.

My main point is this: I think spellcasters have it very easy in d&d. Lots of ways to get a spell off, even in dangerous circumstances (5' step is just gravy).

I think spellcasters are pretty well balanced with the other classes within combat - the problem to me is that they're far more dangerous out of combat.

Just out of curiosity - you came in from a previous edition, didn't you?

I'm irritated that one of the last remaining ways to accomplish this, which is open to a commoner, is now gone (readying an action). Am I just being a baby?

Yup. Spellcasters don't have it easy in combat, and every spell a wizard blows during a fight is another one he can't use to wreck the game outside of combat.

 

[everchanging02]

I must first apologize for not reading the complete thread, as it is quite long, and though I enjoy reading the ideas, it would take me until morning to finish, and, regretably, I have classes in the morning.

Here is a real-time description of the situation, taken second by second, upon the start of the round in which the wizard decides to cast the spell...

1st second: The wizard casts the cantrip, taking perhaps the full second or just a portion of it. The archers, if dextreous enough, note this and let loose their arrows.
2nd second: If the archers have low hand-eye coordination, it is more likely they will realize the spell has been cast and let loose their arrows, now. The wizard, at this point, is now preparing his spell, unless the spell requires something additional, and so he is grabbing for his material component.
3rd second: Depending on the distance the archers are from the wizard, the arrows would probably be hitting now. The wizard is disrupted from his acquisition of the component as an arrow strikes him, and he drops it or goes reeling at the pain, or the like. OR the wizard gets an arrow in him while performing the somantic components, and is thereby distracted as he groans in pain.
4th second: If the archers are rather distant from the wizard, it is more probable that the arrows would be hitting now. The wizard has gotten his components out, or is partially through his sommantics, but is now struck by the arrow, and reels at the hit, dropping the component or ceasing his sommantics.

This is over half a round, and if the spell requires an action to cast, then he has already taken more time than he has to cast it. If it takes a full round, then he can't have started the spell after the arrows hit. All of the above, of course, is assuming the caster fails his Concentration check.

What I'm trying to say is that the archers cannot get their arrows off in the split-second that it takes to cast the free-action spell. It's just not physically possible. Therefore, their arrows do not disrupt his casting of the cantrip. They disrupt whatever other action he does, thereafter.

Given the "I wave my hands around like I'm casting a spell" case, it is hard to say. It is not difficult to tell that someone is doing something suspicious that might be able to be interpreted as a spell. However, what qualifies this?

In the Player's Handbook v.3.5, it says that casting Quickened Spells (Free-Action Spells) does not incure an attack of opportunity (Pg. 144).
Also from the PH, it says you can Ready and action with the trigger of someone starting to cast a spell. It does not go into any detail of if the person requires the knowledge of Spellcraft or whatever. (Pg. 160)

Someone on the first page took an exerpt from the SRD that stated that a readied action could only be readied for a move or standard action, and therfore disqualifies Free Actions as initiating action from Readied Actions.

Given the spell is a free action, how can you say they even notice that he is casting a spell? Are they going to shoot at the flick of a wrist? How do they know he isn't just pointing at something, or snapping his fingers for the heck of it? They suddenly see this finger flipping them off, and they are puzzled at where it came from, then realize it was a spell, but note it didn't hurt them. And, even still, whatever this minor action may be, it is not of the complexity of action that casting a spell is (as denoted by the difference between a Free Action taking up no amount of time in a Round, and a Standard Action (the typical time to cast a spell) as taking at least a couple seconds of the six-second Round).


Truthfully, it might be clever, but I would say it doesn't work.

 

[sullivan]

2) A player who tries to sneak things past his GM is asking for a beat-down. The atmosphere is much better when (on the players side) players are willing to approach the GM about a desired tactic, and can expect (on the GM's side) that the GM will provide a means if the tactic isn't unreasonable.

Bah! It wasn't like he sprung it on the GM right away. You'd think that if the spell was intended at first to be used that way it'd come out ealier, but even if he did plan it out ahead, the GM simply wasn't looking far enough ahead along and (what I think is the real lesson here) broke two fundementals of custom spell design; including a metamagic function as part of a spell AND not even assigning an appropriate level after breaking the first rule.

If you can't outthink the player on the other side of the DM screen you are likely sitting on the wrong side of the DM screen, and if you take it personally instead of laughing when a player manages to outwit you then you definately are on the wrong side of the screen.

EDIT: BTW the GM -does- get to know before it affects the game. The GM gets to make a ruling, so just like countless other times a GM rules interpretation is made. Big whoop.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The lack of a free-falling object doesn't prevent someone casting Feather Fall.

"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."

You cast Feather Fall... then, when it comes into effect, you make the decision as to what to target.

It's like casting Hold Person on the doppelganger who looks like a dwarf. The spell target is 'one humanoid'. You cast the spell; the slot is expended; you make the decision as to what to target when the spell comes into effect; the effect is resolved.

In this case, if you select the doppelganger as the target, the spell fails, because the doppelganger is not 'one humanoid'.

You can cast Feather Fall - triggering all relevant readied actions and using up the slot - and then, when the spell comes into effect, select 'you' as the target. Since you're not a free-falling creature, the spell fails. But it was cast.

-Hyp.

 

[sullivan]

You can cast Feather Fall - triggering all relevant readied actions and using up the slot - and then, when the spell comes into effect, select 'you' as the target. Since you're not a free-falling creature, the spell fails. But it was cast.

Actually it's a non-descrimitating area effect. So the spell doesn't fail, there just are no valid targets for it to affect. The castor cannot directly choose who/what does or does not get affected. They just choose the center of the burst. More akin to setting off a fireball in empty air.

 

[Caliban]

Actually it's a non-descrimitating area effect.

Actuall, the spell is targeted effect that can affect multiple targets of your choice.

You might want to actually read the spell.

 

[Thanee]

Targets: One Medium or smaller freefalling object or creature/level, no two of which may be more than 20 ft. apart

See? No mentioning of burst or area of effect there.

It's surely similar to an area effect, but it is no area effect, it's multiple selective targeting.

Bye
Thanee

 

[sullivan]

Actuall, the spell is targeted effect that can affect multiple targets of your choice.

You might want to actually read the spell.

My purchasing habits you could question, but my reading skills are just fine.

I don't feel the need to drop cash on new books, and v 3.0 it says: "Any free-falling objects or creatures in a 10-ft. radius whose weight does not total more than 300 lb./level", along with Close range. Although "burst" is not actually stated, you could almost imply it. You could however rule that it is a fixed diameter and is able to act through barriers (of some sorts).

EDIT: NM, I just saw popped up the 3.5 SRD that seems to have all those spell descriptions handy. I'll make a note to refer to those in the future.

 

[BSF]

Wow, what a thread.

The spell in question was mis-leveled. Cantrips should never be free actions. Quickened spells cannot be interrupted with readied actions and they don't draw AOO's either. Altamont Ravenard already quoted the relevant section from the SRD way back on the first page. Even if I allowed quicked actions to be interrupted by readied actions, I still wouldn't have a problem with this. I would even reward it by allowing it to work against many dumb mooks. Why not? It's kinda fun. (I will taunt you a second time.) There are plenty of ways for commoners to sometimes disrupt spells. Grappling works fine. I readily admit that there is a certain amount of appeal in commoner mooks hanging back trying to ready to disrupt, but it isn't realistic past a certain point. They might try the tactic, but they will still die a quick death. For me, the key is that the tactic will work often. But sooner or later, it won't. Maybe the PC draws fire but ends up with a crit instead of a normal hit. Oops. Maybe the sniper isn't a mook but is an arcane archer. Sure, in that case the arcane archer would be much better off going full attack on the spellcaster. But maybe the arcance archer is working for the BBEG and his instructions are "ready an attack on anyone that tries to interrupt my soliloquy." The point is that this tactic is hardly foolproof. It's a nifty idea.

But the fact of the matter is that it doesn't work. Quickened actions cannto be interrupted like that. Explain to the player that both of you have been playing it wrong.