My take on it all. (A Rant of sorts, feel free to ignore)

[BEAN THE CAT]

I am a long time, off an on again D&D player. Every time a new edition (okay I skipped 2nd and 3.5), I shell out the $'s for a look see, and to give the rules a shake down.

I have not seen any huge issues with 4E, as a whole, and depite the "It's a TT MMO" and "PC's are super heros now" (D&D was never "Grim and Gritty", and MMO's looked to D&D first ), it still retains it's basic D&D shape.

But the one book I am bothered buy is the Monster Mannual. Sure it's less cluttered then 3E was, but looking at it, I have to wonder about the utility and choices made.

In theory I like the Template approach, but it is the way it is applied.
Why are some "humanoinds" so damn powerful (Kuoa Toa and Drow start out w/min levels of 11+????, why because they live under ground), why do some not have "Minion" class templates, etc.....

It just seems to limit the utility of the MM, and create more work for the GM. Suppose I want to start the PC's off fighting Drow? It was a snap in the previous editions....now I gotta figure outr what LOW LEVEL drow are....I assume there is such a thing.......or do the pop outta the womb as little bad assed little Drizzel-et clones?. In the previous editions this was certainly easoier to do...

Why, oh, why couldn't they have just given us a basic stat block, and THEN a few examples of applied templates to beef them up???

 

[Holy Bovine]

I do agree somewhat that I would have liked to have seen some lower level versions of Drow & Kuo Toa (do they have a racial entry in the back? I'm not near my books right now). Minions look dead simple to make however so all I needed there were some examples and it is pretty easy to create tons more.

 

[TimeOut]

There are the guidelines (note: not rules) to down- or upgrade each monster based on its role.

So if you want to have 1st level drow, just de-level them.

 

[Ten]

In theory I like the Template approach, but it is the way it is applied.
Why are some "humanoinds" so damn powerful (Kuoa Toa and Drow start out w/min levels of 11+????, why because they live under ground), why do some not have "Minion" class templates, etc.....

It just seems to limit the utility of the MM, and create more work for the GM. Suppose I want to start the PC's off fighting Drow? It was a snap in the previous editions....now I gotta figure outr what LOW LEVEL drow are....I assume there is such a thing.......or do the pop outta the womb as little bad assed little Drizzel-et clones?. In the previous editions this was certainly easoier to do...

Why, oh, why couldn't they have just given us a basic stat block, and THEN a few examples of applied templates to beef them up???

I think you took the wrong idea from the MM. The MM is NOT a whole bunch of base races that you can apply templates to. Monsters now simply do whatever you want them to do that fits their theme and role. You want the PCs to face Drow early on? Simply look through some other low level humanoids, find some cool things, add a drow touch to the abilities, and you have low level drow.

It may be hard to break out of a 3e mindset, but it's what you need to do when it comes to monsters. Do you have a cool idea for a power that has flavor? Well damn, you have a monster.

 

[BeauNiddle]

I think it's because they've tried to tie the levels together thematically.

Heroic is where you fight in the local area against creatures that threaten life and limb.

Paragon is where you fight the masterminds and manipulators that threaten freedom and liberty

Epic is where you face of against the gods and demons that drive the ideas that have been threatening existence itself.


Why is flight limited to Paragon, why is long range teleport limited to epic, etc.


If you fight Drow at low level they run the risk of loosing any gravitas they have and become just colour shaded elves (or worse colour altered kobolds). Powerful enemies need powerful abilities to challenge powerful protagonists.

Also remember that scaling in 4th ed is better so you can send 11th level threats against 6th level parties.

I for one like the fact they have written theme changes into the rules - fighting 'Yet Another Bigger Orc' at 20th gets dull fast.

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

Like I said it's kind of a rant of sorts.

There certainly are solutions....

But yes "De-leveling" is what we have to do.

A Simple template would have gone a long way IMO.....

The long and short of it is the 4E MM seems way to eager to show off the "coolness" of certain beasties....

Oh well..At least I am not totally alone in my misgivings toward the format...

 

[MadMaligor]

I am a long time, off an on again D&D player. Every time a new edition (okay I skipped 2nd and 3.5), I shell out the $'s for a look see, and to give the rules a shake down.

I have not seen any huge issues with 4E, as a whole, and depite the "It's a TT MMO" and "PC's are super heros now" (D&D was never "Grim and Gritty", and MMO's looked to D&D first ), it still retains it's basic D&D shape.

But the one book I am bothered buy is the Monster Mannual. Sure it's less cluttered then 3E was, but looking at it, I have to wonder about the utility and choices made.

In theory I like the Template approach, but it is the way it is applied.
Why are some "humanoinds" so damn powerful (Kuoa Toa and Drow start out w/min levels of 11+????, why because they live under ground), why do some not have "Minion" class templates, etc.....

It just seems to limit the utility of the MM, and create more work for the GM. Suppose I want to start the PC's off fighting Drow? It was a snap in the previous editions....now I gotta figure outr what LOW LEVEL drow are....I assume there is such a thing.......or do the pop outta the womb as little bad assed little Drizzel-et clones?. In the previous editions this was certainly easoier to do...

Why, oh, why couldn't they have just given us a basic stat block, and THEN a few examples of applied templates to beef them up???

Bean, the idea of level value in monsters has always been there, in every edition. Its as much a part of D&D as anything. I would argue that 4th actually takes a step in the direction of allowing downgrades in a number of areas. But there are gonna be certain creatures that have innate abilities that equate to "X" level value. They certainly arent born into those powers at infancy and you can rule as you see fit. But those societies you mention have a history of "survival of the fitest". At maturity, certain monsters (especially the non humanoid ones) are going to be at a certain base level, or would have been weeded out long ago through the natural selection process.

You certainly can make the aberrant exception (thats what DM'ing is all about). But the norms are going to have a baseline. Downgrading humanoid variations actually is just a process of removal or neutering of ability. But you would have to come up with some sort of story line reasoning for that I guess. I can see where you are coming from, but I think there are plenty of reasons for setting the bar a bit higher on some humanoid monster races.

I just had a thought. You might consider keeping the abilities (maybe lower the defenses a bit), and just setting them at minion level. That way they are deadly as hell, but die after a hit. The only problem then is houseruling the system of experience reward appropriately.

 

[BEAN THE CAT]

I think it's because they've tried to tie the levels together thematically.

DING! DING! DING! We have a Winnah!

I do believe you are correct. I think that is really at the root of what is irking me, about this editions MM.

The Assumption that at Level n , you should be fighting creatures A, B, and C .

If you fight Drow at low level they run the risk of loosing any gravitas they have and become just colour shaded elves (or worse colour altered kobolds). Powerful enemies need powerful abilities to challenge powerful protagonists.

While I understand what you are saying, it defies any sort of logic. If the Drow (or any other "mid-ranged monster", has an army of, well hell- lets face it "Super-soldiers" why would they bother with an army of minions at all? Hell if the average drow is worth 11 of the enemie, they could conqurer the world in a couple of days...A hand ful of scrappy hero's that gets in the way (assumeing they are level appropriate) would be mowed down as well...It doesn't make sense...Oh well, maybe thats why I always eventually abandon D&D (again). The whole "Level" thing just doesn't work for me....

It seems largely Artificial...and yet so retro where D&D is concerned

Bean, the idea of level value in monsters has always been there.

Of course, you are right. I guess one of the things I liked about 3e was it de-emphasized this, to some degree.....4th seems to be determined to re-emphasize it. For better or worse.

 

[charcoalninja]

DING! DING! DING! We have a Winnah!

I do believe you are correct. I think that is really at the root of what is irking me, about this editions MM.

The Assumption that at Level n , you should be fighting creatures A, B, and C .



While I understand what you are saying, it defies any sort of logic. If the Drow (or any other "mid-ranged monster", has an army of, well hell- lets face it "Super-soldiers" why would they bother with an army of minions at all? Hell if the average drow is worth 11 of the enemie, they could conqurer the world in a couple of days...A hand ful of scrappy hero's that gets in the way (assumeing they are level appropriate) would be mowed down as well...It doesn't make sense...Oh well, maybe thats why I always eventually abandon D&D (again). The whole "Level" thing just doesn't work for me....

It seems largely Artificial...and yet so retro where D&D is concerned



Of course, you are right. I guess one of the things I liked about 3e was it de-emphasized this, to some degree.....4th seems to be determined to re-emphasize it. For better or worse.

Well with the drow you have to remember that all their lore paints them as fearsome warriors that are the badasses of the underdark. That are constantly fighting themselves to the point where they rarely launch any large scale attacks. They kind of thin out themselves and make enemies with everyone. Sure the average drow warrior is lvl 11, but when everyone hates you it gets hard to conquer things.

 

[Crosswind]

...I kid you not, the Monster Manual is the best book of the 3. It might be my favorite D&D book of all time.

With incredibly simplicity, you can think "I would like my PCs to fight X", go look up X, put together an encounter, and be relatively confident that it will be a fight of the difficulty you expect.

The whole process takes between 30 seconds and 2 minutes (depending on whether or not you have to scale monsters). It is the single greatest accomplishment of 4E.

-Cross