D&D 5E My tweak to make (Champion) Fighters decent

[Flamestrike]

I like your adventure! Good job!

Thanks mate!

When I sit down mid week to design adventures for my players I always turn my mind to temporal considerations in addition to just statting up a half dozen encounters. You frame your adventure or quest within a deadline for success/failure.

I dont always have time constratints (save the princess by midnight, cure the plague before it wipes out the town, stop the BBEG before he completes the ritual, escape from the dungeon before you get marooned, locate the macguffin before your enemies do etc), but I do use them often.

Time constraints on an individual quest provide narrative drive, grant a sense of urgency to the current quest, allow for consequences for quest failure (meaning the PCs actions matter), and allow the DM to more effectively police the adventuring day.

'Encounters' in 5E are not designed to be deadly in and of themselves - they are designed to be a smaller piece of a larger challenge (the entire adventuring day of half a dozen encounters). Surviving or overcoming a single encounter isnt how the game is supposed to work; its about overcoming around half a dozen encounters (rationing your resources over that time frame) and succsfully completing the current quest/ mission.

My midweek preparation involves designing an adventure contaning several encounters, often placed inside a time-frame for success. Its succeeding in the adventure before the time limit expires that matters; not just overcoming a single encounter.

DnD is (mechanically) a resource management game. Hit points, Hit Dice, spell slots, rages, action surges, superiority dice, second winds, Ki points, Sorcery points, channel divinities, luck points, gold pieces, charges etc etc are all resources that the players need to manage within the quests parameters.

A DM that just sits back and doesnt turn his mind to managing the resource management side of the game, is failing at his job IMO.

That can be anything from time limits on quests, to altering resouce recharge ('gritty realism' rest variant) to implementing milestone resource replenishment.

Instead of calling it an 'adventuring day' lets call it a 'long rest resource window'. 5E is balanced around a default of your average party dealing with around half a dozen encounters within that 'long rest resource window' and obtaining around 2 short rests during that window.

How you as a DM make that happen is entirely up to you.

 

[FrogReaver]

Thanks mate!

When I sit down mid week to design adventures for my players I always turn my mind to temporal considerations in addition to just statting up a half dozen encounters. You frame your adventure or quest within a deadline for success/failure.

I dont always have time constratints (save the princess by midnight, cure the plague before it wipes out the town, stop the BBEG before he completes the ritual, escape from the dungeon before you get marooned, locate the macguffin before your enemies do etc), but I do use them often.

Time constraints on an individual quest provide narrative drive, grant a sense of urgency to the current quest, allow for consequences for quest failure (meaning the PCs actions matter), and allow the DM to more effectively police the adventuring day.

'Encounters' in 5E are not designed to be deadly in and of themselves - they are designed to be a smaller piece of a larger challenge (the entire adventuring day of half a dozen encounters). Surviving or overcoming a single encounter isnt how the game is supposed to work; its about overcoming around half a dozen encounters (rationing your resources over that time frame) and succsfully completing the current quest/ mission.

My midweek preparation involves designing an adventure contaning several encounters, often placed inside a time-frame for success. Its succeeding in the adventure before the time limit expires that matters; not just overcoming a single encounter.

DnD is (mechanically) a resource management game. Hit points, Hit Dice, spell slots, rages, action surges, superiority dice, second winds, Ki points, Sorcery points, channel divinities, luck points, gold pieces, charges etc etc are all resources that the players need to manage within the quests parameters.

A DM that just sits back and doesnt turn his mind to managing the resource management side of the game, is failing at his job IMO.

That can be anything from time limits on quests, to altering resouce recharge ('gritty realism' rest variant) to implementing milestone resource replenishment.

Instead of calling it an 'adventuring day' lets call it a 'long rest resource window'. 5E is balanced around a default of your average party dealing with around half a dozen encounters within that 'long rest resource window' and obtaining around 2 short rests during that window.

How you as a DM make that happen is entirely up to you.

I agree with pretty much everything. I just wanted to add, I'm fine with a DM totally not adhering to assumed "long rest resource window" as long as he tells me up front. It's that important. It allows me to make a character choice that will make me happy in his game.

 

[Flamestrike]

I agree with pretty much everything. I just wanted to add, I'm fine with a DM totally not adhering to assumed "long rest resource window" as long as he tells me up front. It's that important. It allows me to make a character choice that will make me happy in his game.

I agree wholeheartedly. One of the first questions I ask a new DM is a discussion on his/her views on long/short rests in the campaign.

Answers of 'I intend to use the gritty realism variant' or 'the campaign will generally be conforming to the DMG standard of 6-8 encounters on your average adventuring day, and you can generally expect around 2 encounters between short rests' etc let me know the rest/resource meta for the campaign (and reassure me that the DM in question knows his or her stuff). As would a DM who replied with 'This campaign will not feature any resource management by the DM, and the 5 minute adventuring day is the default'

If the DM is permissive of the 5 minute adventuring day, then full casters and paladins are the go-to (and you would avoid playing a warlock or a fighter). If he was more inclined towards longer adventuring days featuring plentiful opportunities for short rests, then fighters, warlocks and monks become a better choice.

I highly doubt I would want to play in a campaign that allowed for the 5 minute adventuring day personally. I find campaigns that feature [nova] then [retreat and rest overnight] then [nova] then [retreat and rest] over and over again to be boring, lacking any verisimilitude and devoid of any narrative value.

There are no decision points to ability use. You just mash all your 'super power' buttons on round one raging, blatting off 9th level spells, spamming divine smite after smite, action surging on round one etc. Its boring, repetitve and rote and lacking any risk/reward assesment by the player when it comes to using abilities.

There are also no penalties for failure, or deadlines driving the protagonists and story forward.

 

[S'mon]

What 'artificial structure'?

Here is my most recent adventure for my PCs:

The town the PCs are in is attacked by Orc horde and Tanarruks (Fiend-Orcs). The PCs defeat the Orcs and find out from an Orc prisoner that they are led by a being known as 'the Pale Master'. This being is planning a ritual in 2 days time at midnight on the winter solstice... to open a rift to the abyss and gate in an army of demons. The PCs also learn that NPCs friendly to the PCs have been captured during the attack on the town, and the Orcs plan on sacrificing them to complete this ritual.

The PCs learn the Orcs are encamped at a ruined keep previously explored by the PCs about 2 days ride from the town.

Encounter 1 is the town siege (a deadly+ combat encounter, staged in three waves with no chance to rest). This is followed by 2 days travel (and a possible random encounter), followed by the assault on the lair (a ruined keep and its dungeon level).

The lair contains 7 [medium-hard] combat encounters (orcs, eyes of gruumsh, orogs, Orc champions, Orc warlords, Taanaruuks, vrock demons, and the 'Pale master' - an albino Glabreezu with enhanced spellcasting!). There is a chance to short rest between defeating the orcs in the exterior encampment and the keep itself, and before descending into the ruins.

If the PCs fail the quest, the NPC allies of the PCs are killed, and a demonic horde is summoned laying waste to the surrounding area. The town is attacked again; and this time in addition to the Orcs there are Vrock and Hezrou demons and a towering CR 17 Gloristro!

What about that is 'artificial'?

Thats an adventure that will keep the PCs entertained for several sessions. It sets them up with a thrilling race against time to save several NPCs from a demon horde/ orc alliance, with consequence for failure added in.

That (to me) is much better adventure design then NOT turning your mind to a temporal constraint and simply having the PCs [nova one encounter] fall back to rest for a day [nova another encounter] rinse and repeat.

It reads like a rather linear published adventure. You just run your PCs down these rails
time after time after time? That's not a campaign I'd be interested in playing.

 

[S'mon]

I agree with pretty much everything. I just wanted to add, I'm fine with a DM totally not adhering to assumed "long rest resource window" as long as he tells me up front. It's that important. It allows me to make a character choice that will make me happy in his game.

What if GM tells you "I'm running this well known published adventure?" Do you assume he will
add in time constraints (that still allow for 1 hour short rests) to make your Fighter PC viable? Because none of the published adventures I have "Police the Adventuring Day" the way Flamestrike demands. Certainly none of the WoTC ones, few of the Paizo ones do either. There is a strong tendency towards
"linear strings of encounters" in a dungeon with no wandering monsters, and you always arrive Just In Time to stop the ritual...

If it is a "stop the ritual" adventure then I like to add a time constraint myself, but it only works if the players know about it. So recently running both 4e DCC adventure "Mists of Madnesss" and 3e Paizo (run
in 5e) adventure Seven Swords of Sin I had NPCs tell the PCs they only had 1 night/2 days to stop the ritual. If they failed/fail then I will have the ritual complete and will adjudicate consequences.

But I can't turn every dungeon crawl into a time-limited adventure. Just ran "The Asylum Stone" and there is no plausible way to put it on a time limit - the maguffin has been sitting there for 10,000 years,
guarded by the BBEG - without huge rewriting.

But I would always let a player rebuild or replace a PC that wasn't working out.

 

[Flamestrike]

It reads like a rather linear published adventure. You just run your PCs down these rails
time after time after time? That's not a campaign I'd be interested in playing.

What 'rails'?

The town the PCs are in get attacked by Orcs and Demons. After which an Orc is interrogated and the PCs find out several NPCs have been captured and the leader of the Orcs plans on a ritual to release demonic horde into the area.

I'm not forcing or 'railroading' the PCs to do jack squat. They can abandon the town (and the NPCs) to its fate if they want.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between an 'adventure hook' and 'railroading'.

How do you design adventures for your players during the week?

 

[Flamestrike]

What if GM tells you "I'm running this well known published adventure?" Do you assume he will
add in time constraints (that still allow for 1 hour short rests) to make your Fighter PC viable? Because none of the published adventures I have "Police the Adventuring Day" the way Flamestrike demands. Certainly none of the WoTC ones, few of the Paizo ones do either. There is a strong tendency towards
"linear strings of encounters" in a dungeon with no wandering monsters, and you always arrive Just In Time to stop the ritual...

If it is a "stop the ritual" adventure then I like to add a time constraint myself, but it only works if the players know about it. So recently running both 4e DCC adventure "Mists of Madnesss" and 3e Paizo (run
in 5e) adventure Seven Swords of Sin I had NPCs tell the PCs they only had 1 night/2 days to stop the ritual. If they failed/fail then I will have the ritual complete and will adjudicate consequences.

But I can't turn every dungeon crawl into a time-limited adventure. Just ran "The Asylum Stone" and there is no plausible way to put it on a time limit - the maguffin has been sitting there for 10,000 years,
guarded by the BBEG - without huge rewriting.

But I would always let a player rebuild or replace a PC that wasn't working out.

Yet Ive run my players through;

1) Several Pazio adventures in and around Falcons Hollow (D0 Hollows last hope and D1 Curse of the Kobold King), and
2) 3/4 of the Age of Worms adventure path, plus
3) 2 x AD&D modules I converted on the fly (White Plume Mountain, and Lost Island of Castanamiir)

The PCs are all now 14th-16th level.

I managed to apply time contraints on around 50-75 percent of those adventures (which is slightly above the number needed) with ease.

• There was a captured sorcereress in AoW that the PCs had to rescue before the Lizard folk ate her.
• There was seige of a keep, where the enemies attacked in waves before dawn.
• There was a plague that required 3 ingredients to cure, and NPCs were dying all the time.
• There was as rival band of adventurers trying to explore the Whisperin Cairn at the same time as the PCs
• There were kidnapped children that the PCs were trying to save
• The PCs got stuck on an Island and had three days to find the escape from the dungeon before being marooned.
• The PCs had 4 hours to recover the three weapons (Wave Whelm and Blackrazor) before the Archmage returned to the dungeon
• The PCs were captured by dopplegangers and had no time to rest
• The PCs were in an arena fight that had 3 fights per day against rival gladiator teams, with a short rest after each fight. At night they were exploring under the arena, and unable to long rest
• There was an Orc invasion (noted above) where the PCs had to stop a ritual before a certain time elapsed

Etc, etc etc.

Some adventuring days the PCs only get the one encounter. Some days they are not on the clock at all and are free to do things at their own pace. But due to the frequency of 'multiple encounters between long rests' (happening around 50-75 percent of the time) the players always conserve resources and rarely nova (they've been caught out a few times nova-ing what they thought was a single encounter... but instead turned out to be the first of many for that day!)

I dont know why you're so hostile to this idea S'mon. Myself and other DMs are trying to help you and give you advice to make your campaigns balance better, provide more narrative pacing outside of you just sitting back and allowing your players to engage in the 5 minute adventuring day.

All we're doing is giving you advice on how to avoid or manage the 5 minute adventuring day. Which is part of the DMs job.

Unless you prefer the 5 minute adventuring day for some reason. Personally I think its ridiculous contrivance and one not seen in any fiction. The heroes never nuke an encounter, fall back to sleep for 8 hours, nuke another encounter, sleep 8 more hours etc.

 

[S'mon]

I dont know why you're so hostile to this idea S'mon. Myself and other DMs are trying to help you...

I'll tell you why I'm hostile. I don't want your help. I didn't ask for your help. I asked for help on tweaking the Fighter the way I wanted (now done, thanks again everyone who helped), and instead you think it's fine to fill up my thread with the same crap you post everywhere else, treating me like I'm functionally retarded and can't appreciate the great wisdom you're trying to impart.

I don't like your style. That's just my subjective view. You are not wrong to prefer your style. Where you are wrong is in claiming it's the only viable or legitimate style for 5e D&D. 5e, like 4e and 0e-2e, can accommodate a wide range of encounter frequencies, from frequent trivial fights 6-8 times/day to occasional massive Spike encounters. At worst, one or two classes are weak where occasional fights are the norm, but this can be addressed with a bit of tweaking (as I have done here), with no need to mangle my campaigns into something resembling a season of '24'.

 

[S'mon]

How do you design adventures for your players during the week?

I create lots of NPCs with strong motivations, and create/develop environments. I don't normally create my own dungeon environments, I would rather use/adapt something by a great designer like Dyson Logos. I'm more likely to sketch out towns, ships, islands - in terms of their inhabitants, not usually a detailed map.

I sometimes come up with a Bang/Kicker, like last Saturday "the PCs encounter a merchant ship commanded by an old ally", I detail the NPCs aboard the ship & their motivations, then I sit back and see what happens.

More commonly, motivation for adventure comes from the PCs and their interaction with the
pre-established motivations of NPCs, including hostile NPCs onstage and offstage. So eg one group decided to go back into Dyson's Delve to try to find the legendary Nerathi Imperial Archmage Dyson Logos, now rumoured to have become a dragon, in order to seek his aid against the Black Sun cult & their evil empire of Neo-Nerath. Some of the PCs would rather just kill the dragon and get his treasure (they wish), but they know he could be a powerful ally in the ongoing war.

 

[Zardnaar]

We're not really seeing the 6-8 encounters either and we're running PotA.