Mystic Theurge? Eldritch Knight? Located where?

[Psion]

So... What are the downsides of these classes?!?!

They aren't as powerful as they appear at first glance, because they require a lack of focus to get into.

That said, IMHO, they are still too useful, too flavorless, and the entry requirement for Eldritch Knight is a joke. The Mystic Theurge is okay at low levels but the double level bonus catches up and makes it too useful at higher levels.

I have done some conversion work to give them more flavor and make them more balanced, in the form of more class abilities (including that much vaunted ASF reduction) and fewer spellcasting levels. These classes have a philosophy of giving 90% of each contributing class abilities; I think 75% of each would be more appropriate.

They make good starting points for your own classes, but taken as is, I really do not like them.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

As others have said, they're not TOO overpowered, just very...blah.

That's it...blah. No mojo. No Oomph! Just, blah.

 

[Will]

I used a pair of 12th level mystic theurges in my campaign recently, to see how they'd work.

Well, the lack of turning power was bad, because they could not bolster their undead allies.

The lack of any real powerful magic was somewhat of a pain. Sure, the surprise of clerics casting fireball or lightning was cool, and the mix of spells was handy. Particularly in combination with Divine Power.

I'd say a 12th level mystic theurge is a viable opponent. But not overpowered, at least in my experience.

As a PC, a mystic theurge has the advantage of having more spells to cast per day, but spells that give saves are a problem. I think a conjurer-specialist would be good, as those spells don't require a lot of saves. Also, spells that improve the character are key. One problem the character will have is, also, the need for decent Int and Wis.

I have not played with the Eldritch Knight that much. I think the big problem, at least at low levels, would be the lack of armor. At higher levels, bracers of armor + ring of prot + amulet of natural armor can somewhat mitigate the problem. At least in my estimation, I don't think it's an unbalanced class, particularly since you have to be at least 2 caster levels less than a pure caster.

I think a good eldritch knight would be an archer (who typically aren't heavily armored), using true strike a bunch. A sorcerer might be a useful base, so that buffs and true strike can be used frequently. Hmmm. Ranger/sorcerer/Eldritch Knight?

Personally, I want functional PrC, so I don't share the reaction that 'they aren't flavorful enough.' Flavor is the province of setting, IMO. _I'll_ define what groups have eldritch knights... but that's me.

 

[Silverglass]

Eldritch Knight is not overpowered as you lose a caster level, any bonus feats and familiar progression in return for better HP and BAB, to be a Fighter/Wizard you really need Still Spell so that they can cast spells in armour.

Mystic Theurge seems overpowered but in fact it isn't, it just fixes the fatal weakness of Multiclassed spellcasters, the fact that low level spells coupled with a low caster level just can't make a decent impact against high level monsters.

A Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 5 counts as an 8th level caster in each class. Compare that with an 11th level Single caster and you quickly see that with 4th level spells rather han 6th level the MT loses out quite a lot (because a spells power increases in a non-linear manner). Even a Wizard 5/Cleric 5/MT 10 only counts as a 15th level caster in ecah class so loses 8th and 9th level spells. Yes they have 4 or 5 more spells per day at each level up to 5th and 2 extra 6th but they will have 2 less 8th level spells and 4 less 9th level spells (yes they gain a net 19 spells, excluding ability bonuses, but those are low level which rarely make a huge impact on a high level encounter). The final bonus is that they will roll to penetrate SR as a 15th level caster in each class but that just makes penetrating SR difficult rather than well-nigh impossible.

For these "extras" the Wizard loses bonus feats, familiar progression and the 2 free spells each level. The Cleric loses 2 HP/level and turning progression (and a 5th level Cleric's turn usually wont touch high CR undead).

 

[Voadam]

So... What are the downsides of these classes?!?!

Sheesh. To think, in another thread, I asked if there was problem with third party d20 publishers putting out "power creep" supplements...

For the theurge it is mainly the loss of 3 levels of straight class casting.

For the EK it is still not a great front line fighter mage. You still have arcane spell failure, you have five or six levels of arcane caster d4 HD plus only gain d6s from the class so you are pretty fragile for a front liner. It takes a while for the BAB to catch up after 3 levels of no BAB advancement. As a missile fire character you can be pretty effective and you can be an OK front line warrior (maybe as effective as a bard) at the cost of two caster levels.

I think it works fine and I'm using it with my current character who is a back up front line fighter as well as the party's primary mage. Since there are usually only two or three PCs active in our campaign, it helps to play multiple niches well, even if not optimized.

 

[pawsplay]

Mystic Theurge makes you less a Cleric, because of the poor hit dice and BAB, weak Fortitude save, and you can't wear armor without hurting your arcane casting. You also get no turning progression. It makes you less a Wizard, because you get no familiar advances and no bonus Feats. It's not so bad for Sorceror, but you still get no familiar advances, and you will generally have less Skill Points than a Wizard (or spread your ability scores even thinner). Your highest caster level is 3 less than that of a pure caster. You are less a Cleric or a Wizard, because you have two ability scores for casting. You combine Wizard armor restrictions with Cleric religious restrictions.

Eldritch Knight causes you to trade your good Will save for a good Fortitude save. Your caster level is a minimum of 2 less than a pure caster. You get no bonus feats if a Wizard, no familiar advances if a Wizard or Sorcerer, and no higher level Bard abilities if a Bard. Sorcerers sacrifice the least by the charts (just familiars and changing out their good save in exchange for full BAB and a better hit die), but require a good ability score in everything except perhaps Wisdom: Str for melee, Dex for AC and ranged, Con for hit points, Int for skill ranks (which are in precious supply), and Cha for sorcerer casting. The Fighter Feat at 1st level was a stroke of inspiration. Not only does it take you down one more caster level, with some compensation (you basically get one virtual Fighter level with less hit points), but it means their caster level increases are not regular and hence there is no question of caster progression for epic characters.

 

[pawsplay]

It occurs to mention that if you wanted to tweak the Mystic Theurge, you could make the spell progression irregular. Just erase the increase at 3rd level and replace it with a bonus Feat chosen from any metamagic, item creation, spell mastery (if Wizard), Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration, or Improved Turning. This would take them down one more notch, in exchange for some compensation, cover some of their weak areas, and bury the issue of epic Mystic Theurges.

 

[johnsemlak]

I think both of them were put up on the Wizard's website as well, as a preveiw to DnD 3.5.

Only the Mystic Thearge was put out. The Eldritch Knight came out when 3.5 was released.

 

[AnthonyJ]

Eldritch Knight is not overpowered as you lose a caster level, any bonus feats and familiar progression in return for better HP and BAB, to be a Fighter/Wizard you really need Still Spell so that they can cast spells in armour.

Actually, you lose two caster levels; you have to have proficiency with all martial weapons, which requires you to take at least one level of fighter, barbarian, ranger, or paladin. I'd probably take the ranger, though I suspect the barbarian is a superior munchkin option.

 

[DMScott]

If you want a more flavourful Mystic Theurge and you've got Malhavoc's Book of Hallowed Might, the Hallowed Mage is a pretty neat replacement (for good characters, at least).