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Mystic Theurge + Necromancer = ?

Cybern

First Post
Here are some questions I haved asked myself for some time now, while building a "True Necromancer" type of character:

1) Necromancer and the Death Domain : the True Necromancer's ability Necromancer, states that all spellcaster levels (lets assume cleric+wizard+true necromancer) stack for necromancy spells' and death domain spells' caster levels. Is the same true for the Death Domain granted power?

2) Necromancer and Mystic Theurge class : should Mystic Theurge count for the total necromancy spells caster level ? If so, should they only count once (not to abuse too much of the Theurge's dual bonuses) ?

3) Mystic Theurge and Turn Undead : do Mystic Theurge levels count for turning undead? I'm guessing its a no here...

4) Destroyed Undead : when a turning check results in a destroyed undead, is the equipment of the said undead destroyed too?

5) Zombies and Full-Round Actions : can zombies do the "Coup de Grace" maneuver, even if they have the single action restriction ?

6) Can slain undead (skeletons and zombies, mostly) get reanimated by another use of the Animate Dead spell ?
 

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Kae'Yoss

First Post
Cybern said:
Here are some questions I haved asked myself for some time now, while building a "True Necromancer" type of character:

3) Mystic Theurge and Turn Undead : do Mystic Theurge levels count for turning undead? I'm guessing its a no here...

And you are right. but see below

Cybern said:
4) Destroyed Undead : when a turning check results in a destroyed undead, is the equipment of the said undead destroyed too?

I don't think so (usually, this is no problem, since the undead you can destroy are usually mindless ones and don't use much equipment). It's not undead equipment, after all

Cybern said:
5) Zombies and Full-Round Actions : can zombies do the "Coup de Grace" maneuver, even if they have the single action restriction ?

I think they can, but they have to use two rounds for it - In the first round (they already have to stand beside the victim), they start it, then everyone else acts, and then they use another standard action to finish their CdG. At this point, they deal the damage and force the save. You note that someone could drag the victim away, crossing the undead.

Cybern said:
6) Can slain undead (skeletons and zombies, mostly) get reanimated by another use of the Animate Dead spell ?

AFAIK you cannot recycle destroyed undead.



Mystic Theurge and True Necromancer:
I thought about creating a PrC that uses the ideas from these two PrC's.

[Houserules now]
(These is no final PrC, just some thoughts) True Necromancer (Revised)
Prerequisites:
3rd-level arcane spells, 3rd-level divine spells.
Knowledge (Religion) 12+ ranks//as this is the new Know(Undead)
Knowledge (Arcana) 12+ ranks
Domains: Either Death or Undeath //if FR is used// Maybe even both, but that would exclude Kiaransalee...
Special: Ability to Rebuke Undead
Feats: Spell Focus (Necromancy) //maybe Greater as well// Feats that deal with turning are good as well
Special: May be no specialist Wizard other than Necromancer //But it's not required

Class Features:
Weak BAB, HD d4 or d6, class skills circa like True Necromancer
+1 Arcane Caster level, +1 Divine Caster level every level/As with mystic theurge
Class levels add to level to turn/rebuke undead, and number of undead controlled (both for cleric domination and magic domination) //maybe even the arcane levels
Necromancy Focus: Effectively specializes in Necromancy for Arcane spells, if not already done so. This means that he chooses two schools to ban. He cannot cast spells from these schools with his arcane class any more, and cannot activate the usual kinds of magic items. This change is retroactive: Even spells known before cannot be cast again (Sorcerers can exchange these spells normally). Unlike other spellcasters, the focus of the True Necromancer lies in the combination of arcane and divine magic. Therefore he neither gets the extra spell slots for school specialization nor the domain spell slots (but since all Death domain spells and almost all Undeath domain spells - Wail of the Banshee being the exception - are Cleric Spells, this won't result in loss of necromantic spells known). They must know (or have in their spellbook) at least one arcane spell of every spell level before they can learn further spells from other schools from that level. //This is not retroactive, so if you don't have a 1st-level arcane necromancy spell, you don't have to get one, but you cannot learn more 1st-level spells before you get a 1st-level necromancy spell.
True Necromancy: If a spell from the Necromancy school is on both class lists and the True Necromancer has them prepared on both lists, he can cast them simultaneously (losing both spells prepared) to increase the effectivity. This doesn't take double casting time, only the longer of the two. If the spell slots are different, use the higher for every considerations (Concentration DC etc). If he wants to cast it with metamagic, both spells have to be prepared thus.
This has several effects:
You can conbine your class level in your original arcane caster level, your original divine caster level, and your True Nekromancer level as caster level. Example: A wizard 5/ cleric 7/ true necromancer/3 would have caster level 15.
You use the higher spell level and the higher key spellcasting ability score to determine the DC. Example: A sorcerer 6/ cleric 5/ true necromancer 8 with Wis 18 and Cha 14 casts animate dead. He uses his true necromancy to use both a prepared divine animate dead (a 3rd-level spell) and one of his 4th-level sorcerer slots to cast it. His caster level for this is 19, and his save DC is 10 + 4 (4th-level sorcerer spell) +4 (for wis 18) = 18. (Of course, animate dead doesn't have a save DC, but see Cross-Class Necromancy, below)
Cross-Class Necromancy: On 3rd level, you can choose one of your known 1st-level arcane spells from the necromancy school and cast it from now on also cast it as a 1st-level divine spell with your divine spellcasting class. You can also add your 1st domain spell from the death domain as a 1st-level arcane spell to your spells known (either write it in your spellbook or add it to your spells known. This doesn't count against your limits of spells known). //if you have the undead domain instead, you use that spell, if you have both, you can choose one.
//You cannot cast these spells if your effective class level in that spellcasting class is not sufficient, but with a wiz/clr or sor/clr combo this should not happen.
At 4th level, you can do the same with 2nd-level spells, on 5th level with 3rd-level spells, and so on, until on 10th level you exchange 8th-level spells.



Critics (and raves) are welcome
 

Scion

First Post
1) Necromancer and the Death Domain : death domain states cleric levels, so no

2) Necromancer and Mystic Theurge class : some people have said they feel it is overpowered, but personally I feel that they should stack. So you can gain a bit of extra spell penetration, that is pretty much the only benefit, not major enough to say no to.

3) Mystic Theurge and Turn Undead : nope, still not cleric levels ;) or rather, levels of a class that can turn undead

4) Destroyed Undead : my book says 'total levels' not 'total cleric levels', but I dont know if there is errata, or changed for 3.5

5) Zombies and Full-Round Actions : I think so, just takes two rounds

6) Can slain undead (skeletons and zombies, mostly) get reanimated by another use of the Animate Dead spell ? nope, once killed they are too beat up to be reused ;)

Another thing about True Necro and theurge levels, you have to give up a lot to make it into the necro this way, in order to gain a fairly minor benefit, might as well let the player have fun! ;)
 

Monty

First Post
Wow, that sounds like a neat build! When you finish it, please post it.

My comment is for #2: No character level should ever count as two levels for caster or character level. So even though Mystic Theurge gives you +1 divine and +1 arcane, it should only increase your caster level by one.

Now should the MT levels count at all for the Necromancer ability? Absolutely, under Necromancer it says that when casting necromantic spells, all spellcaster levels stack for purposes of determining the effect. It doesn't specify that they need to be cleric or wizard levels - just caster levels.

Each level of Mystic Theurge would count as one level instead of two. So a Clr5/Wiz5/MT5/TN3 would cast non-necromancy and non-death domain spells at 10th-level, but necromancy and death domain spells would be cast at 18th-level (instead of 23rd-level).

Regards,
Monty
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Monty said:
My comment is for #2: No character level should ever count as two levels for caster or character level. So even though Mystic Theurge gives you +1 divine and +1 arcane, it should only increase your caster level by one.

Regards,
Monty
IIRC, then the wording of the true necromancer and the wording of the mystic theurge make it clear that the TN would get absolutely no benefit from his theurge levels.

I believe the exact words for TN indicate that he adds together his cleric levels and his wizard levels, not that he adds together the caster levels.
 

Camarath

Pale Master Tarrasque
Saeviomagy said:
IIRC, then the wording of the true necromancer and the wording of the mystic theurge make it clear that the TN would get absolutely no benefit from his theurge levels.

I believe the exact words for TN indicate that he adds together his cleric levels and his wizard levels, not that he adds together the caster levels.
Exact Wording From T&B:
Necromancer: The true necromancer has unsurpassed
power over death. When she casts necromantic spells
(from the School Necromancy or the domain of Death),
all her spellcasting levels stack for the purposes of determin-
ing their effect. She does not gain access to higher-level
spells any faster than faster than normal, but specified spells
behave as though cast by someone of that higher level.


I believe you were thinking of the example which deals with a wizard/cleric.
 

Camarath

Pale Master Tarrasque
Monty said:
Now should the MT levels count at all for the Necromancer ability? Absolutely, under Necromancer it says that when casting necromantic spells, all spellcaster levels stack for purposes of determining the effect. It doesn't specify that they need to be cleric or wizard levels - just caster levels.
I am not exactly sure what "spellcasting levels" are. I see two options for what may constitutes a spellcasting level either a character’s caster level; or any class level which grants the character the ability to cast spells. I am not certain which is the right intperitation.

Here are the only two references to "spellcasting levels" that I could find in the SRD.
Levels in the hierophant prestige class, even though they do not advance spell progression in the character’s base class, still stack with the character’s base spellcasting levels to determine caster level.
—Spells: A rakshasa character casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer. If the character takes additional levels of sorcerer, these levels stack with the rakshasa’s base spellcasting ability for spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level. A rakshasa character likewise uses the sum of its
racial spellcasting levels and class levels to determine the abilities
(Note: rakshasas have 7 HD)
 
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