Naked Adventurers (no, it's not what you think)

[VoodooGroves]

When we play we often boil magic item values down to strict GP amounts. These amounts were divided, you could either take cash or the item. If you took the cash and wanted to buy something, we had some availability charts for how long it took to buy an item, if it was available, etc. Ultimately it allowed folks to get what they wanted.

In some campaigns (for instance, we did a 2e game a few years back that was essentially running through canned modules) this becomes pretty commonplace. In others, the DM may want to create nifty items that he doesn't simply want reduced to their gold-piece values. In the other games, very often the DM ends up giving out balanced-with-each-other items and bumping EL all around to take care of the power difference. XP is scaled back to keep advancement in line (so encounters are a bit harder to make up for items but XP is basically the same).

I'm liking the "hero points" idea for some of these campaigns. It would keep that "family heirloom +1 sword" in the character's hands for longer.

I've been messing with a little bit of stuff to equate how two rival lords may equip their forces and still be able to address game balance. For instance, lets assume Town A and B both have a militia made up of 100% WAR1s. If Town B has more money, they put full plate and large shields in the garrisons. Town A, which only has a little money, wears leather. If this is expanded, assume each has the same percentage of WAR2s. Town A (with less money) manages to get these guys on horseback with spears. Town B gets their WAR2s outfitted on heavy warhorses, everyone wears plate and carries lances, swords, etc. Heck, maybe town B has enough dough to mount up the WAR1s as well. How does that balance?

I don't have the D20 supers from Natural 20 yet ... but I think the question is balancing
- internal power
- equipment

That said, the base D20 doesn't allow for alot of "internal power" within some classes - I think the fighter is pretty darn well expected to use tools. Other classes (monk, sorcerer) are pretty well scoped out with internal powers. Hmmm..

 

[CRG]

This sounds very interesting.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to how this could be implemented for D&D? Would it need to be class weighted (seems like it should be)?

 

[Furn_Darkside]

I think I'm betting on Slacerian Dragons to finish the lot of them.

Do you actually get paid for every reference you make?

FD

 

[kengar]

IMO there's nothing wrong with lots of magic items in a campaign. Magic is part of fantasy, and definitely part of D&D. The problem is that allowing the free buying and selling of magic items turns them into commodities...

...A +5 bow should have a significance of its own; it shouldn't be exchangeable for every other +5 bow out there...

...The question, therefore, is not how to reduce the importance of magic, but how to give it back its mystique. So, how do you get rid of ye olde magic shoppe, and associated tomb-raiding mentality, while still allowing players to keep the toys they're accustomed to?

AMEN BROTHER!! TESTIFY!!

In the campaign I'm designing I have deliberately limited some classes and feats; the item creation feats in particular. Basically, there is Scribe scroll, Brew potion and Craft Wand. That's it. All "permanent" (chargeless) magic items are found. There is also very little market for things like wondrous items in the economy they live in (few adventurers). PC spellcasters are limited in class, too (No Wizards, Clerics or Paladins, just Sorcerers, Druids, Bards & Rangers).

The idea being that if you find a Ring of Wizardry, it doesn't matter that you would rather have a Ring of Invisibility, selling the RoW won't get you anything near DMG "Market Value" and you won't be able to buy the RoI in town anyway. I plan on being fairly generous with certain kinds of magic and equipment so the players shouldn't grumble TOO much, but the goal is for them to look at the quiver of magic arrows and say "Cool! I can really USE these!" instead of "I wonder if I can get 1000gp for them so I can buy the item I want?"

 

[Furn_Darkside]

What do y'all think?

Salutations,

I think these general hypotheticals are too difficult to answer for d&d.

For example:

Are these fighters/wizards generally designed? Or are they specifically designed to fight their opponent? Are both sides prepared? Surprised? Where does the battle take place and how far away from each other do they start? What books are allowed?

And who is playing them? Some players are much better at the type of thinking required for pvp then others.

Sure, magic items make a large difference, but so do feats, skills and attributes.

If I was making a mage (you mean wizard?) to fight another mage- it would look a heck of a lot different then if I made a mage to take on a fighrer - and that would look a heck of a lot different then if I made a mage for general adventuring.

I also think discounting the fighter vs fighter combat is not a good idea- the fighter can go so many directions that it is possible for a 15th lvl fighter designed to take on a 9th lvl fighter could pull it off if the 9th lvl fighter did not think of something.

In the end, that is the best thing about starting at 1st lvl of campeigns- you have exact control over the magic items in the world.

Respectfully submitted
FD

 

[Darkness]

1) Could a fully equipped 9th level fighter take down a 15th level fighter that only had 1000gp to spend on armor and weapons?

Sometimes, but not always.
If I was a 15th-level fighter, I'd disarm the other guy (and, if possible, then use his weapons against him). Or maybe I'd grapple him...
edit - And using Expertise or Superior Expertise would work well, too.

2) Could a fully equipped 9th level mage take down a 15th level mage that only had 1000gp to spend on . . . whatever? (Here, we must assume that the 15th level mage does not simply teleport away.)

I don't think so - but if he won initiative and the higher-level wizard didn't have too many spells in effect, it might be possible.
Still, globe of invulnerability would make the 9th-level wizard quite helpless (as only his 5th-level spells - of which he'll have two at most, or three if he's a specialist -, and maybe some of his items could directly affect his opponent... Summoned monsters might help a bit, but against the kind of offensive the 15th-level wizard can bring to bear, they won't last long...).

... what would happen if the 9th level fighter went after the 15th level mage ...

Bad odds for the fighter - very bad. At 15th level, the wizard's mobility (e.g., fly) and defensive magics (e.g., protection from arrows or stoneskin) are more than enough to handle turn a fight with a well-equipped lower-level opponent into a few minutes of target practice.

... or the 9th level mage went after the 15th level fighter.

Poor fighter... Unless, perhaps, he spends those 1,000 gp on, say, a bow and some very good magical arrows - and even then, stoneskin or improved invisibility will probably ruin his day.

 

[Tallow]

Its the GM's fault

Interesting conversation here.

Here are my thoughts:

1. If the player's and GM's enjoy a light, heavy, or ridiculous magic level game, then they are allowed to enjoy it anyway they want to.

2. If players/GM or player1/player2 disagree on what level of magic to use, then they need to compromise.

3. If the GM is worried that an average party level of 9th level is going to be able to take out a 15 level arch-villain easily, then they need to beef up what the arch-villain has.

Its the GM's fault if they don't scale the adventure and/or badguys to meet the level of power the players exhibit. If the players have alot of magic to fight with, and they are gaining all this magic through adventure, why aren't the badguys using the magic they have to try and keep the players from getting it?

Andy

 

[Desdichado]

Yes, but there should be some off the shelf solutions for those who don't want to utilize as much magic equipment as the DMG says. In my opinion, the spellcasting classes become ridiculously overpowered relative to "mundane" classes without magic items. I've often seriously considered rewriting those classes altogether when I'm not in the mood for the heavy magic scenario in my games, but I don't feel like I really understand the system well enough to do so and make something that approaches balance.

I'm not a Holy Grail of Balance type of guy, but I do prefer something closer than what we've already got. Even with magic items, it seems the spell-casters are at a distinct advantage to fighters etc. at high level.

 

[Vaxalon]

Let me get this straight, Joshua...

You want to be able to run a scenario that isn't heavy-magic, and include classes which can cast many powerful spells every day?

I'd say it can't be done.

 

[Forrester]

Thoughts . . .

Excellent thoughts, all. I'm seeing a couple different issues emerge, though, as the thread progresses. To wit:

1) It's *impossible* to give even an approximate estimate of how much more powerful fully-equipped parties are than "naked" parties. However, it seems obvious that fighter-types benefit from magically goodies more than spellcasters do.

--I can appreciate why people say this, but frankly, I don't think this is a good enough answer. I think we *need* to get a good estimate of how they measure up. Is a fully-equipped fighter twice as powerful than his naked equivalent? Four times as powerful? EIGHT times as powerful? Perhaps this would mean doing a run through a set group of encounters with two parties: one 15th level naked party (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) and one 9th level equipped party of the same composition. And find which one drops first, against a variety of different foes. I would be willing to talk my group into doing a one-shot with some 9th level (or 15th level) guys, and/or setting up the encounter list. If we can get two or three or four other DMs, w/groups, to do the same, perhaps we can answer this question a little more systematically.

Anyone interested? It's for science!


2) A good GM can and should control his campaign so that it's NOT all about the "magic shoppe", and make it so that even if the requisite amount of gold and items are handed out, getting items that are *ideal* for character power maximization is difficult. (Credit to creamsteak, hong, Tengar, Tallow)

--This is a separate issue. I agree that a good GM should, and needs, to do this. I find it irritating that it's so immensely important, though, and that there seems to be such a huge difference in power level between a 12th level party that can buy whatever they want, and a 12th level party that has difficulty trading in their +1 longswords for +1 greatswords or Wands of Healing (or whatever).

In my campaign, there are very few magic shoppes that sell permanent items. I couldn't figure out how the shop owners would protect themselves from Charms and Suggestion, much less thieves with Dimension Door, Teleport, Gaseous Form, and so on, much less any high level thugs that can figure out where he lives. A group of 12th level evil adventurers would be MORE than happy to break out all the stops to steal the number of items that are supposed to be available for purchase in a medium-sized town, I think. Do medium-sized towns usually have 12th level guards for hire?

If the merchants aren't high-level, they'd be screwed. So in my campaign, most magic item purchasing and trading goes through brokers.

So I've solved the problem by using brokers, right? Not quite. There's a high-level party of elves on the party's trail, with some very nifty custom-made equipment given to them by the King himself. These elves probably have about x1.5 the average loot that *PCs* of that level should start with. So this 8th level party of elves is overequipped (just like I want them to be). How much does this overequipping add to their effective level? One level? Two? Three? I NEED to know -- because there's a big difference in presenting my party an overwhelming challenge, and presenting them a challenge that they have *no* hope in overcoming. After all, the 7th level party of PCs is (slightly) underequipped. How much will this affect them?

The CRs in the MM suppose that the party they are fighting are equipped with items that are generally useful. Aren't you curious as to about how much weaker the party is if only half their goods (or a quarter of their goods, or less) are immediately useful to them? Wouldn't it be disturbing if the answers were "about half as powerful, or about a quarter as powerful"?