Natural attacks. How, exactly, do they work?

[ARandomGod]

First of all it's pretty clear that natural attacks and unarmed strikes (including improved unarmed strikes) are not the same in the rules, and there are several mechanical differences. Although for simplicity people have been known to treat them the same or similiarly.

In this case, however there's a situation where it will help to my group to know exactly how RAW handles them differently. Specifically a warforged dragon disciple juggernaught.

(Yes, they can all be combined).

Warforged get a natural slam attack.
Dragon disciple's get a natural Bite/Claw/Claw, with the claws as secondary attacks.

How would these combine?
Secondary attacks are at -5 to hit (excluding feats). So assuming a BAB of 6, would that be:
bite/slam/claw/claw at 6/6/1/1?

Or do you pick one primary attack as primary, making it:
bite/slam/claw/claw at 6/1/1/1?

Now what about normal BAB? Would holding a sword in one hand remove one claw attack, but add two BAB attacks... or do you have to choose either normal BAB attack progression OR natural attacks?

What about the warforged juggernaughts armor spikes. Using those as a weapon wouldn't require the use of a hand, and so bite/slam/claw/claw would still be available.

If they do combine, in what way?

And add any more trivia or interesting facts you can think of that you know how RAW states things should be. If RAW is completely unclear on the subject, I'd of course want to hear how you'd rule and why, but I'm most interested in what rules are actually out there already, what they say and how clearly they say it.

 

[Thanee]

You can make your attack(s) with a manufactured weapon (including iterative attacks from high BAB) as a primary attack PLUS all natural weapon attacks as secondary attacks (-5 penalty), except with the appendages you need to hold the weapon (so you couldn't use the slam attack in addition to a manufactured weapon, for example, as both obviously use the same appendage (the right hand), armor spikes being an exception here, of course).

As for Slam and Claw attacks, both would use the hands (or fists) and thus you can only do either the one or the other.

You could choose either the Bite or the Slam attack as primary and then the other plus one Claw as secondary, of course you could also use Bite, Claw, Claw, instead.

Slam (P), Bite (S), Claw (S)
Bite (P), Slam (S), Claw (S)
Bite (P), Claw (S), Claw (S)

Because the slam attack deals only 1d4 damage, the only reasonable choices are the latter two, depending on whether you fight skeletons or not (slam deals bludgeoning damage, while claw deals piercing and slashing damage; the bite deals all three types of damage, anyways).

Mixing in manufactured weapons, you could attack like this:

Weapon, one-handed (P; full iterative attacks), Bite (S), Claw (S)
Weapon, two-handed (P; full iterative attacks; 1.5x STR), Bite (S)

With armor spikes, you have your hands free, so it would go like this:

Armor Spikes (P; full iterative attacks), Bite (S), Slam (S), Claw (S)
Armor Spikes (P; full iterative attacks), Bite (S), Claw (S), Claw (S)

Bye
Thanee

 

[glass]

Firstly, I wouldn't allow a Warforged Dragon Disciple. Dragon disciples focus on their draconic heritage, and warforged do not have draconic (or any) heritage.

However, in the general case, I would rule that the claws and slam would both use the same bodypart, so could not be combined. Both could be combined with the bit, however. This does raise an interesting issue however: the bite is primary when combined with the claws, but what about when combined with the slam? I'd say for simplicity the bite would still be primary and the slam secondary unless there was a good reason not to, but you could rule it either way.

Alternatively, you could rule that you get all four attacks at once. In any case, one (either bite or slam) would be primary, and the rest would be secdondary.

In either case, of course, the character would loose the 1.5 Str bonus to damage for a single natural attack.

I'll check my books when I get home, and maybe I'll be able to give you a more definitive answer.


glass.

 

[apesamongus]

Warforged get a natural slam attack.
Dragon disciple's get a natural Bite/Claw/Claw, with the claws as secondary attacks.

How would these combine?
Secondary attacks are at -5 to hit (excluding feats). So assuming a BAB of 6, would that be:
bite/slam/claw/claw at 6/6/1/1?

Or do you pick one primary attack as primary, making it:
bite/slam/claw/claw at 6/1/1/1?

You get pick one as primary and the other becomes secondary. In this instance, though, there is the additional element that slams are normally considered arm strikes, so you would get either the slam or one fo the claws, but not both.

So, options are...
bite/claw/claw at 6/1/1 or
bite/slam/claw at 6/1/1 or
slam/bite/claw at 6/1/1
and none of that is counting possibly wielding a weapon.

Now what about normal BAB? Would holding a sword in one hand remove one claw attack, but add two BAB attacks... or do you have to choose either normal BAB attack progression OR natural attacks?

Yes, wielding a weapon would remove one claw or the slam attack. Also, the primary natural attack would be downgraded to a secondary, so...
sword/sword/bite/claw at 6/1/1/1 or
sword/sword/slam/bite at 6/1/1/1 or
sword/sword/bite/slam at 6/1/1/1

and, monk attacks get silly, because you don't lose the claw or slam...
monk/monk/bite/claw/claw at 6/1/1/1/1 or
monk/monk/bite/slam/claw at 6/1/1/1/1 or
monk/monk/slam/bite/claw at 6/1/1/1/1

What about the warforged juggernaughts armor spikes. Using those as a weapon wouldn't require the use of a hand, and so bite/slam/claw/claw would still be available.

Well, that gets really interesting. Because, if I recall correctly, the spikes count as an off hand attack, which you don't get iteratives with, and I don't know if there are any rules on making an off hand attack with no main hand.
So, with the sword example, it would just add an extra attack to any sword progression (assuming twf) with a -2 to all attacks...
sword/sword/bite/claw/spike at 4/-1/-1/-1/-1 or
sword/sword/slam/bite/spike at 4/-1/-1/-1/-1 or
sword/sword/bite/slam/spike at 4/-1/-1/-1/-1

but without the sword, your guess is as good as mine. I'd guess...
spike/spike/bite/claw/claw at 6/1/1/1/1 or
spike/spike/bite/slam/claw at 6/1/1/1/1 or
spike/spike/slam/bite/claw at 6/1/1/1/1
but couldn't back that up at all.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Note that it is possible to have more than one primary natural attack.

In fact, most monsters that have primary natural attacks have more than one (and the most common is two claws).

Accordingly, it is possible to have both a bite and a slam as primary natural attacks.

Moreover, note that a slam does not necessarily require a specific appendage:

Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

So, while a slam could possibly be a blow with a fist, it's not required to be, and I would have no problem with a particular warforged making a shoulder check for a slam attack, for instance (unless the ECS states otherwise, which I don't think it does).

If you could post your character's actual BAB and Strength score, I could calculate for you all the possibilities for your attacks. Until we get that, I'll speak in more general terms (and use the +6 figure you quoted above). Also, I'll assume that you've taken TWF, but not any more advanced TWF feats, and that your armor spikes do 1d6 points of damage.

"Unarmed"

• Attack Action
  1. Bite: +6, 1d6+Str (PBS)
  2. Claw: +1, 1d4+.5Str (PS)
  3. Slam: +6, 1d4+Str (B)
• Full Attack Action
  1. Natural Attack: 1 Bite +6, 1d6+Str (PBS); 1 Slam +6, 1d4+Str (B); 2 Claws +1, 1d4+.5Str (PS)

"Longsword in One Hand"

• Attack Action
  1. Bite: +6, 1d6+Str (PBS)
  2. Claw: +1, 1d4+.5Str (PS)
  3. Slam: +6, 1d4+Str (B)
  4. Longsword: +6, 1d8+Str (S)
• Full Attack Action
  1. Natural Attacks Only: 1 Bite +6, 1d6+Str (PBS); 1 Slam +6, 1d4+Str (B); 1 Claw +1, 1d4+.5Str(PS)
  2. Sword Only: Longsword +6 / + 1, 1d8+Str (S)
  3. Mixed: Longsword +6 / + 1, 1d8+Str (S); 1 Bite +1, 1d6+.5Str (PBS); 1 Slam +1, 1d4+.5Str (B); 1 Claw +1, 1d4+.5Str(PS)

"Spikes"

• Attack Action
  1. Bite: +6, 1d6+Str (PBS)
  2. Claw: +1, 1d4+.5Str (PS)
  3. Slam: +6, 1d4+Str (B)
  4. Armor Spikes: +6, 1d6+Str (P)
• Full Attack Action
  1. Natural Attacks Only: 1 Bite +6, 1d6+Str (PBS); 1 Slam +6, 1d4+Str (B); 2 Claws +1, 1d4+.5Str(PS)
  2. Spikes Only: Armor Spikes +6 / + 1, 1d6+Str (P)
  3. Mixed: Armor Spikes +6 / + 1, 1d6+Str (P); 1 Bite +1, 1d6+.5Str (PBS); 1 Slam +1, 1d4+.5Str (B); 2 Claws +1, 1d4+.5Str(PS)

"Longsword in One Hand and Armor Spikes"

• Attack Action
  1. Bite: +6, 1d6+Str (PBS)
  2. Claw: +1, 1d4+.5Str (PS)
  3. Slam: +6, 1d4+Str (B)
  4. Longsword: +6, 1d8+Str (S)
  5. Armor Spikes: +6, 1d6+Str (P)
• Full Attack Action
  1. Natural Attacks Only: 1 Bite +6, 1d6+Str (PBS); 1 Slam +6, 1d4+Str (B); 1 Claw +1, 1d4+.5Str(PS)
  2. Manufactured Only 1 (LS Pri): Longsword +4 / -1, 1d8+Str (S); Armor Spikes +4, 1d6+.5Str
  3. Manufactured Only 2 (Spk Pri): Armor Spikes +2 / -3 1d6+Str (P); Longsword +2 1d8+.5Str (S)
  4. Mixed 1 (LS Pri): Longsword +4 / -1, 1d8+Str (S); Armor Spikes +4, 1d6+.5Str; 1 Bite +1, 1d6+.5Str (PBS); 1 Slam +1, 1d4+.5Str (B); 1 Claw +1, 1d4+.5Str(PS)
  5. Mixed 2 (Spk Pri): Armor Spikes +2 / -3, 1d6+Str; Longsword +2, 1d8+.5Str (S); 1 Bite +1, 1d6+.5Str (PBS); 1 Slam +1, 1d4+.5Str (B); 1 Claw +1, 1d4+.5Str(PS)
  6. Mixed 3 (LS Pri, No Spk): Longsword +6 / + 1, 1d8+Str (S); 1 Bite +1, 1d6+.5Str (PBS); 1 Slam +1, 1d4+.5Str (B); 1 Claw +1, 1d4+.5Str(PS)
  7. Mixed 4 (Spk Pri, No LS): Armor Spikes +6 / + 1, 1d6+Str (S); 1 Bite +1, 1d6+.5Str (PBS); 1 Slam +1, 1d4+.5Str (B); 1 Claw +1, 1d4+.5Str(PS)

 

[ARandomGod]

Thanks Thanee. Very clear and answers pretty much all my questions.

Now, I agree that slam is done with arm/hand... which is a great reason why it's normally easy for people to just intermix the two (IE< I'd houserule let someone get BAB slam attacks as improved unarmed strikes, but obviously not with an intermixture as above).

But does it say that slam must be an arm/hand? Couldn't it be a head/leg? In which case the character could use two claws AND the slam.

Firstly, I wouldn't allow a Warforged Dragon Disciple. Dragon disciples focus on their draconic heritage, and warforged do not have draconic (or any) heritage.

I gave him a draconic heritage by having him be made with a dragonshard and some dragon parts in his creation schema. Of course, he's a recent model, less than a year old.

It adds interesting flavor, and matches the chacracter up to the existing flavor text of the PrC. Plus it added in some interesting story hooks for the GM to work with. All good things.

Apart from flavor there's no reason it wouldn't work. So problem solved!

However, in the general case, I would rule that the claws and slam would both use the same bodypart, so could not be combined.

And a good ruling this is. That's how I've thought of it. I do wonder if it's a must however (see response to Thanee above)

Both could be combined with the bite, however. This does raise an interesting issue however: the bite is primary when combined with the claws, but what about when combined with the slam? I'd say for simplicity the bite would still be primary and the slam secondary unless there was a good reason not to, but you could rule it either way.

We played last time with the character* using both the bite and the slam as a primary attack. I'm now thinking that was an error, and I'm getting responses indicating that it was, so that confirms that suspicion. But it was an on the fly decision then, this is my attempt to research the rules.

*not mine, but I'm going to have one similiar, I suggested this build to the person who's using it without realizing this natural attack potential

In either case, of course, the character would loose the 1.5 Str bonus to damage for a single natural attack.

Not having enough experience with natural attacks, this is something I've heard about but I don't actually know. Where is that written, if you don't mind (or anyone?)

Either way, that is actually the case and not just me misremembering something I read once long ago then? A single natural attack would get 1.5 str?

I'll check my books when I get home, and maybe I'll be able to give you a more definitive answer.

glass.

I very much appreciate it.

Well, that gets really interesting. Because, if I recall correctly, the spikes count as an off hand attack, which you don't get iteratives with, and I don't know if there are any rules on making an off hand attack with no main hand.

I hadn't heard/read/ or even suspected that before. That would indeed make things even more and needlessly complex. I'd be interested hearing more, but I think it would be simplest to just call the spikes a normal weapon.

And, of course, while the character is not a monk, a monk's belt isn't very hard to come by.

lol

 

[Thanee]

Note that it is possible to have more than one primary natural attack.

In fact, most monsters that have primary natural attacks have more than one (and the most common is two claws).

Accordingly, it is possible to have both a bite and a slam as primary natural attacks.

This is incorrect.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

You cannot have two different primary natural weapon attacks. So, you have to choose between the two options.

Moreover, note that a slam does not necessarily require a specific appendage.

This depends on the monster in question, of course, but the attack is then always with the same appendage as I understand it. For the Warforge, I would consider it a fist strike.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

About the STR bonus question for natural weapons:

A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1-1/2 times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses.

About armor spikes being off-hand attacks (which is wrong):

You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case.

They just work like any other light weapon, except for the hands free part, and can, of course, be used as a primary weapon. You can also make multiple attacks with them, either way (given you have the appropriate feats, if you use them as an off-hand weapon).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

This is incorrect.

Funny, I was just about to post the exact same rules text in support of my position.

You cannot have two different primary natural weapon attacks.

Except, of course, for the text you quoted.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon.

What is a set of natural weapons if not more than one natural weapon? There is no text in that statement that *requires* that the natural attacks be of similar make, model, or design. (In other words, it does not say a "set of identical weapons" like 9 tentacles, or what have you.)

This depends on the monster in question, of course, but the attack is then always with the same appendage as I understand it. For the Warforge, I would consider it a fist strike.

This is not necessarily required by the rules, though I can imagine why it would be ruled so.

 

[ARandomGod]

Note that it is possible to have more than one primary natural attack.

In fact, most monsters that have primary natural attacks have more than one (and the most common is two claws).

Accordingly, it is possible to have both a bite and a slam as primary natural attacks.

Moreover, note that a slam does not necessarily require a specific appendage:

Mmm. Meaty points. One of the main problems (IMO) with the buld is (was) it's lower BAB progression, so fewer attacks. It's a main fighter with a BAB a little less than a straight cleric. This revelation, however it ends up, takes complete care of that issue.