Nauseated flanking

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I've seen the "can't attack = not threatening" reasoning before. It fails. If that were true, you would cease to threaten upon using up your last AoO for the round, and cease to provide flanking to allies. And that's just not how the game works.

Your definition only works if they have the ability to attack and are basically able-bodied. With certain conditions you can take NO ACTIONS other that what is specified.

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

Pretty simple to me.

Let's go down the line of reasoning and RAW again shall we?

Nauseated = can't attack, can't cast spells, can't do anything but move, you can't even theoretically attack, you can ONLY move.
Threaten = Must be able to theoretically attack if we want to go down your route.
Flanking = Must threaten, which means you must be able to attack.

So if you can't attack because you are nauseated, you can't threaten and even though technically you are on the other side of the enemy and flanking per the dictionary definition of the word, you aren't flanking per the definition of the RAW of the PF rules. I know it sounds silly to some people, but that's how it is written and to cherry pick the rules that you follow is for house-ruling not following RAW. I have no problem with people house-ruling things, but if they want to follow RAW I'll tell them they are wrong on a subject if it's this cut and dry.

I'd also add in a few more conditions where you wouldn't be able to flank even if you end up on the other side or start on the other side (flanking) the opponent:

Cowering - The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class and loses his Dexterity bonus (if any).

Dazed - The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.

Dying - A dying creature is unconscious and near death. Creatures that have negative hit points and have not stabilized are dying. A dying creature can take no actions. On the character's next turn, after being reduced to negative hit points (but not dead), and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to his negative hit point total. A character that is stable does not need to make this check. A natural 20 on this check is an automatic success. If the character fails this check, he loses 1 hit point. If a dying creature has an amount of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, it dies.

Helpless - A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

Panicked - A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can't take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Paralyzed - A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

Petrified - A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the character's petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.

Stunned - A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

Unconscious - Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

 

[RigaMortus2]

But if you are paralyzed, cowering, stunned, petrified, unconcious and dying, you'd still be "flanking" if you were on the other side of they enemy, right?

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

But if you are paralyzed, cowering, stunned, petrified, unconcious and dying, you'd still be "flanking" if you were on the other side of they enemy, right?

That's my point, you'd be "flanking" per the dictionary definition by being on the other side of an enemy, but by the RAW of PF, you aren't "flanking" for the purposes of being able to threaten and therefore would not give the flanking bonus to an ally. I truly don't understand the confusion on the part of when affected by certain conditions someone who would normally be able to flank and threaten won't be able to because of what the condition states they can or can not do.

For me, it stops there and I move on to try to get the condition removed instead of trying to find a loophole in the RAW to allow me to do something. As I said before, I'm all for house-rules and if people want to rule this differently in their home games, more power to them and enjoy the game.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Interesting point, Stream.

I found a post of yours and wanted to get some clarification from you regarding your position:



Source: paizo.com - Rules Questions: Is an AOO an action.

I note for those that don't follow the link that Stream was responding to a question of what kind of Action is an AoO and the conversation tangentially invoked a definition of Threatened.

Stream, do I read your position correctly if I think that in the situation you described, the only reason the Nauseated character would be unable to AoO is because the Nauseated condition specifically says it allows no attacks? In other words, the Nauseated character still threatens; you were limiting your answer to address Actions only?

Yes. Nauseated does not allow attacking of any sort, and AoO is an attack, so you cannot make an AoO while nauseated. Despite the fact you can still take some actions (move, basically). The attacking restriction is actually super important, since if you read the rules for charging when you lack a full round action (ie, the "partial charge"), they actually let you do so if limited to a standard or move action, so w/o that restriction, nauseated foes could still attack on their turns w/ partial charges despite being limited to a move action. Just an interesting side note.

Conversely, look at dazed. You cannot take physical actions. But AoOs are not actions (as explained in the link I posted in that paizo thread above the post you linked to), and dazed does nothing to prevent physical non-actions. "Action" has very specific meanings in D&D/PF, and many things, such as AoO, 5 ft steps, and knowledge checks, are not actions at all.

Some may balk at the lack of "realism," but:
1) Game balance matters, too. Like, in game if you're silenced and invisible...you attack flatfooted AC and get a surprise round. In real life, if the foe can't see or hear you coming...you coup de grace him and he dies. Game's too deadly if you don't scale back the brutality a bit from what logic would lead you to concluding.
2.) Ruling otherwise is yet another end result of "nerfing non-casters for the sake of realism," something I just cannot abide. It's heroic fantasy. The wizard can summon angels; my dazed fighter can instinctively trip you as you run by him. Deal with it.

 

[enrious]

Thanks for the explanation Stream - I thought that was the case and wanted to be sure before burning myself on my own strawman.

In any event, can a character take an AoO into a square which they cannot melee attack?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

"In any event, can a character take an AoO into a square which they cannot melee attack?"

No.

 

[enrious]

"In any event, can a character take an AoO into a square which they cannot melee attack?"

No.

Because the character doesn't threaten the square?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why don't we stop beating around the bush, and get to your argument already?

Flanking: "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."

"Threatened": "Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity."

So, I assume your argument was to be that flanking requires threatening, which requires being able to make a melee attack into that space even when it is not your turn. And thus Nauseated prevents your ability to give a flank, as you can no longer attack, and thus the entire chain of deductive reasoning is shut down.

That may in fact be strict RAW. I honestly don't care, I refuse to use RAW when its stupid. As I said in my first post, that exact same logic train leads to the conclusion that using up your AoOs for the round = can no longer provide a flank, either.

And I will never support that view, it's patently ridiculous. I do wish they had defined threatened area by "spaces within your melee attack reach" rather than a need to be able to make the attacks, to avoid this whole mess. I'm quite sure defining threatened space solely as a metric of reach, what squares your melee attacks could theoretically attack, is the intent, given that right below the Threatened Squares definition, they mention how using a reach weapon changes things.

(I also have been trying to use "space" or "cube" rather than "square" in discussing threatened areas*, as use of the term "square" just causes confusion in a 3-dimensional game)

*Or threatened volumes, I suppose is even better

 

[enrious]

No, I was going to point out that unlike simply being out of attacks for a round, nauseated is a Condition that prevents melee attacks and thus threatened and yadda yadda yadda.

Thus, it's a red herring to bring up AoOs in the discussion. A character out of attacks for a round is not otherwise prevented from making melee attacks, unlike a character who is nauseated. Or dead. Or whatever.

But as it is, it's a moot point; you concede that regardless of what the rules say, you want it to be a certain way.

And there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but it does nothing to answer the OP. So to recap for the OP: Nauseated prevents you from Flanking by the RAW. However, if you want to houserule it to be the opposite, it's your game - so have fun with it.