Near Future Fantasy

[DMScott]

A couple of the people I've pitched this idea to have implied that such technology would never come about in a world with an active pantheon of gods and the availability of magic. In my opinion, magic doesn't prohibit science so much as it slows it's advance down.

I tend to disagree. What would most likely happen, IMHO, is that the areas of study in which magic is strongest would be dominated by magical research, and science would be concentrated in other areas. This is because science is all about building a systematic body of objectively determined knowledge, and magic precludes this.

Because of this, a realistic magic/tech mix would look nothing at all like our world, since some areas would be completely given over to magic. For example, taking a D&D style setting and advancing it to modern times, it seems likely that modern medicine would never really develop, since healing magic is so incredibly effective.

Another area to consider is social changes; a world in which there are one or more active pantheons of gods is going to be hugely different from any of the monotheistic religions that shaped much of our modern world. Laws, government, culture, wars, societal attitudes... these would all be different.

I just don't think that a recognizably modern world with magic added in is all that reasonable, unless the magic has arrived recently (a la Shadowrun). Of course, that doesn't mean it can't make a fun setting, just that it's the sort of setting where thinking too hard about how it got there is probably a bad idea.

 

[Salcor]

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I have defiantely been thinking about running something like this for a while. I like the concept of eventually evolving the fantasy worlds, because while wizards are powerful, who wants to study for 15 years to become an apprentice mage? I would probably recommend using the Dragonstar books and just tone down the weapons. The reason I say this, is if you run it as D20 modern it definately takes a while for a character wanting to play a mage to get their spells, since mage is a advanced class, where as with dragonstar it is still a base class.

Here is a potential setting idea for you. An alternate history for the Forgotten Realms. During the Time of Toubles, something happened, forcing Ao leave the gods walking Faerun. Instead of a few years, Ao leaves them to walk for a few hundred. During this time, the danger of using magic, due to the wild magic effects convinces people that the inventions of the Temple of Gond might be worth while to explore. So during that time the is a massive surge in technologicial development. Several wars begin over blaming other nations for the effects to the time of troubles, driving innovation and technology. Many nations of Faerun, like Comyr and the Zenturm advance rapidly through into the beginning of the industrial era. Much of the worlds is still struggling to catch up due to limited manpower or industrial base (think they become third world like Africa). After the time of troubles finally ends, many people are already very comfortable with the use of technology, and the use of magic is still probably frowned upon. Over time wizards guilds were small, secretive societies that people feared, and the magical based nations like Thay were conquered after their magical defenses failed. Sorcerors became more openly common then wizards, and were probably treated with the same fear and loathing, but their is some pitty there too, because it was a curse they were born with.

Well I hope that helps. Got to go.

Salcor

 

[Zoatebix]

You know I've been hearing a lot of great things about these books and now I have to have them. However, Zoatebix you sent me on a wild goose chase trying to find these books on Privateer's website(s). I posted on their boards about these books and got a response about them saying they are done by Prepetrated Press.

Oh. My. Goodness.
That's what I get for not proofreading. I'm so sorry!

 

[Aristotle]

Some interesting stuff here, thanks for discussing this with me. I think its cool to think of this as an extension to a D&D style world (with the same level of magic availability and such). I find the "time of troubles" idea interesting as it doesn't totally shut magic down but it makes it unpredicable enough to allow for technology of all sorts to develop faster.

DMScott, you make an interesting argument. I think in a standard D&D world magic truly would completely dominate certain fields (medicine being an obvious example). I'm hoping the scaled down magic of the setting I am proposing will make it slightly more believable, but I agree that a certain amount of hand waiving is inevitable.

A few notes about the setting I would like to build...

1.) I want to use Modern d20, and I specifically like that character's can't learn magic until they've invested several character levels towards it. And I like that magic is generally a little less powerful than the standard of D&D.

2.) I absolutely don't want magic to be the standard. Businesses burnt coal and developed new mundane ways to produce energy for the same reason the standard fantasy household burns wood in the fireplace. Magic isn't something that everyone has access to, and the costs (and manpower) it would take to generate a constant flow of magical energy to power production would make it prohibitive.

<<of course this assumes that it is impossible to make any sort of magic engine or reactor that focuses magical energy on a constant or scheduled basis without need for a human element (or with need for one for that matter, since humans can only harness so much spell energy in a given time frame (spells per day)).

That isn't to say that charged items don't exist (like wands and staves), but they aren't rolling off production lines by any means. I'd like to avoid 'magic missle guns' being the standard.

I might be open to the possability of some major magical power source (on par with today's nuclear technology)... but the size of the arcane reactor, not to mention the cost of operating one, would put the same sorts of limitations on it that today's nuclear technology has (it provides power to homes regionally and has even been scaled down to power very large vehicles (space/planar, air, and water; but it won't power your car or your watch.)

 

[Zoatebix]

It does not appear that you'll have a problem with Magic Missile guns being the standard: even a hold-out pistol is prohibitively expensive for wide-scale use at 100 GP. And you can always adjust prices up to fit the demographic needs of your campaign.

 

[Salcor]

DMScott,
I definately agree with you on the ways technology would develop in a magically heavy world. I am a big fan of the Dragonstar universe, and I love the premise that they introduce in it. Basically technology allows mundanes to use the laws of physics, magic allows you to break those laws. Thus faster than light travel is not possible without magic. Although I think they fall a little short on where they should be. In my view, technology allows you to reproduce some things that magic can do (in dragonstar, a missile launcher and a fireball are similar). The difference is technology is heavier, less accurate and generally more limiting, where as a spellcast has superior accuracy and at higher levels, firepower.
Another thing for you to look for Aristotle, is try and find Dragon #277. It has an article about advancing the Greyhawk world to a modern setting. Hope this helps.

Salcor

 

[FoolishFrost]

You know, I started writing a setting book on this a while ago called Modern Awakenings. Never finished it because it got an 'eh' response.

It was based on taking a standard D&D world, and seeing how it would develop into it's modern/future counterpart.

I'll see if I can find the manuscript again...

Later,

 

[Aristotle]

From the sound of the comments here I think I would need to produce a setting where magic exists, but is a little more subtle (and available) than the magic of standard D&D. Perhaps if magic were less 'heavy' the technological aspects of the setting would make a little more sense?

Rituals and/or high level spells could make the more overt forms of magic possible, but more difficult to master or coordinate.

Another thing for you to look for Aristotle, is try and find Dragon #277. It has an article about advancing the Greyhawk world to a modern setting.

I totally forgot about that issue. I never owned it, but I did hear people talking about it. It sounds like required reading if I'm at all serious about doing a setting like this.

You know, I started writing a setting book on this a while ago called Modern Awakenings. Never finished it because it got an 'eh' response.

Yeah, I'm getting that too. I think the concept, if done well, could have supporters... but it wouldn't be mainstream; nor would it be a good investment as a published line of products. I'd love to take a look at some of your work sometime. It's always interesting to see what direction someone else takes similar concepts to your own.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

The availability of magic

Consider this, the common spellcaster is not all that common. He becomes rarer the higher level and the more potent the magic he makes becomes. Magic items require he spend experience points to produce. Thus magic is still rare until you get to the point where everyone can cast spells (which is an idea, every character has the Arcane or Divine heritage feat from Urban Arcana, then he cast spells based on his Intelligence or Wisdom modifier or level, which ever is lower, so a character with an 18 charisma can cast 1/1/1/1 1st to 4th level spells, but must be 4th level to get the 2nd level spell, 6th for the 3rd, and 8th for the 4th level spell).

Also consider this, wizards can't heal. Clerics can. They are also religious authorities, say an "Age of Reason" comes by and the clerics are ordered by their god and hierarchy not to heal Heretics. What do you do then? Also far more vaccine can be created even with 18th century technology and treat more people than a cleric can cast cure disease.

Who is to say that magic will prevent technology from developing. We really don't know, because D&D style magic does not exist so we don't know what its effects on science would be.

 

[FoolishFrost]

Actually, it's not the availability of magic, psionics, or any other nitch system that decided the development of technology.

It's resources, pure and simple.

Power, materials, and organized manpower are the primary variables in development of a technilogical base. Social structure also plays a part, along with other environmental variables. For example, the development of Fire -> Forge -> Smelting is going to have a lot of problems developing in an undersea environment.

I personally took the idea of a fantasy world with D&D magic, and tried to figure out what resource it had to make it unique.

Then I got it: Where did magic come from?

You have a force that can be tapped into that breaks every law of thermo-dynamics we know. It seems to offer and endless supply of power, with minimal power expenditure. Even a the most primitive society has figured out how to use it with spell-casters and magic items, and much of the resource is so easily tapped into that half the flora and fauna of the world is using it as natural defense and hunting mechanisms.

Enter the concept of huge magic power generators that draw this 'potential magic from the ether' and put it to work in machines made to use it. Normal D&D magic would be akin to old coal and fire burning furnaces, with the modem technomantic systems being somthing akin o fusion power plants.

IF, and a big if it is, you allow these lines of thought to be true, then technological advancement would be justa matter of time, and once discovered would probably lead to a fast development cycle until it reached a new level for society to stagnate as for a few thousand years.

The technology would be nothing like we understand it... Vehicles would probably tend to fly as a matter of course (unlimited power, no worries of thrust to wingspan ratios...) The power levels would probably jump to something more of a sci-fi level than a modern level just because they could 'brute-force' just about everything with that much available power.

Why build roads when you can form permanent gates between cities? Medical science would suffer due to the power of bards, druids and clerical healing. Yes, there might be limited number of people able to cast, but the truth is when you have a modern society of people with mass communication, you're going to find a LOT more of these people who have the 'knack' for magic of some kind.

Anyway, that was what I was working on with Modern Awakenings. It was pretty cohesive by the time the roughs were written.

I'm rambling. Time to shut up for a bit an let others talk.