Neat GM advice on Female Gamers:

[ProfessorCirno]

When did I say that men have to be macho (or maybe chauvinist) towards women?

I mean, my brother referred to his wife recently as "the boss". What the hell ever happened to being the 'man of the house'? It goes hand-in-hand with things like guys being so overly sensitive about topics discussed on the boards & needing to be babysat by moderators.

The idea that men need to act in a certain "manly" way is pretty much the definition of machismo.

Incidentally, I recommend against trying to cause inter-board drama.

 

[Hussar]

Perhaps the stereotype of socially awkward men that sit and stare in awe at them while playing isn't a very welcoming sign?

If you are looking at it in the way you seem to be with your question, then I'd say "yes", men & women gamers are in fact different. The difference is that women don't make a big deal about playing a game with the opposite sex. They aren't making threads on websites over & over about how to act when playing D&D with men. And when they see a bunch of guys making a big deal about a woman gamer, then I'm sure it makes them hesitant to play, or even be curious about playing.

Wouldn't it be easier to say that they're not making threads because they make up about 10% of the gaming population? Like you say in the next thread, you and I have no real idea because there are just so few women in the hobby that it makes things so difficult to have a conversation about this.

I really wish some female gamers would speak up. Just so I know if I'm full of crap or not. I know these kind of threads are meant to be helpful, but I just can't believe that topics like this put us guys in a good light in the female gamers eyes. I know my wife (who plays) would roll her eyes if she saw a bunch of dudes discussing the proper way to act around a girl gamer.

I think it might be better to look at areas of the hobby where the gender divide isn't so strong. LARPing, for example, seems to attract a fairly decent ratio. At least, from what I've seen, and that's purely anecdotal. I know when I've seen the Vampire LARPers in the FLGS and whatnot, there seems to be a pretty even mix.

So, it's not role play that is the problem. If it was, then LARPing wouldn't have gender balance either. So, what is the issue?

Me, I think the largest issue is the genre to be honest. Fantasy and SF are so strongly grounded in male demographics that it's very difficult to attract women to the hobby and because Fantasy and SF are the biggest games in the hobby, we're stuck. Our chosen genre drives away female games, is my honest opinion. Decades of patronistic and outright misogynistic fiction isn't helping matters any.

Which is why I think Vampire tapped a new demographic. Vampires have lots and lots of appeal to both sides of the gender divide. Vampire fiction has always appealed to both sides of the fence. Anne Rice certainly made sure of that.

 

[Afrodyte]

I really wish some female gamers would speak up. Just so I know if I'm full of crap or not. I know these kind of threads are meant to be helpful, but I just can't believe that topics like this put us guys in a good light in the female gamers eyes. I know my wife (who plays) would roll her eyes if she saw a bunch of dudes discussing the proper way to act around a girl gamer.

What did you want us to say?

*bats eyelashes*

 

[pawsplay]

Ok, a question to all those who claim that there is zero difference between male and female gamers - they're all the same.

If that's true, then why is the hobby still, despite being almost forty years old now, overwhelmingly male? The gender divide isn't even close. I still recall the Dragon magazine polling numbers when Paizo did them and they came back about 10% female gamers.

If there is so little difference, why are women in the hobby such a tiny minority?

Well, that presents no contradiction if you assume women and men outside the hobby are different from people within the hobby. I'm not a position to say "why" such things are and I am suspicious of ascribing causality in the first place. Basically, at the point someone is gaming, I think it is useful to identify them first as a gamer and secondarily as everying else they are, because that's really what you have the most information about. To put it statistically, the between-group differences between gamers and non-gamers vastly outweigh the within-group differences of gamers. Probably non-gamers as well; any time I've seen non-gamers dragged into a session for a game or two, they display astonishingly similar interests to gamers for as long as the interest lasts.

There may well be a difference that explains why men are far more likely to play D&D than women, but whatever that explanation is, it does in the slightest suggest men and women game differently.

 

[pawsplay]

Of course it's different if they are interested about video games or sports cars. I'm just saying that as a default I wouldn't start to talk about them first.

What I'm really trying hard to say here is that I do behave differently with different people because I try to get along with people and for crying out loud it's not about being patronizing... You know people learn from experience, right? So far I've never met a woman who is interested about Mortal Kombat or sports cars, thus I wouldn't bring them up first. Of course if we could get a nice conversation about them it would be different.

Well, that's you. There's a wider world out there, whether you realize it or not.

 

[Hussar]

Oh, Pawsplay, I agree. If you've ever painted your face purple, put on a viking hat and then sat in the end zone to cheer your favourite team, well, you're probably not that far from LARPing. Fantasy Football isn't all that far from gaming either. They're certainly in the same ballpark.

No pun intended.

But, if you look at other geeky pursuits, the gender divide isn't so pronounced. After all, video gaming splits pretty evenly now, while it certainly didn't in the early days of Commodore.

Readership of spec fiction these days splits pretty evenly too. Possibly even a slight edge to women readers, for whatever reason.

But, for some reason, gaming is overwhelmingly male dominated. There has to be some reason. It's not that Geekdom is an all boys club anymore. But, for some reason or reasons, that has not translated into gamer culture.

Note, I'm　certainly not pointing any fingers at any reasons. I don't know. But, I think threads like these aren't a bad idea either. At least get some discussion going

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

Who cares, females gamers can fend for themselves.

 

[nai_cha]

I really wish some female gamers would speak up. Just so I know if I'm full of crap or not. I know these kind of threads are meant to be helpful, but I just can't believe that topics like this put us guys in a good light in the female gamers eyes. I know my wife (who plays) would roll her eyes if she saw a bunch of dudes discussing the proper way to act around a girl gamer.

Okay, I'll bite.

Wouldn't it be easier to say that they're not making threads because they make up about 10% of the gaming population? Like you say in the next thread, you and I have no real idea because there are just so few women in the hobby that it makes things so difficult to have a conversation about this.

All right, so let's look at places where the population is mostly female gamers. Example: girlgamers | Recent Entries (granted, it was more active when it was still on livejournal, but I suppose for purposes of discussion it'll do)

On the front page, the posts are about:

new members introducing themselves to the community
how to handle problem players
discussions about sex and gender roles, especially wrt to gaming
preferences in play styles
opinions about combat mechanics
game reviews
funny or memorable gaming experiences

Oh, look, it's pretty much what you'd find here! Except yeah, there aren't posts on how to behave around guys. When gender is being discussed (in girlgamers and other female gamer focused blogs, communities, etc) it's more in the context of how women are portrayed, how to deal with sexist behaviour, &c &c.

There IS a difference between men and women in gaming, but I don't think it's in play styles or preferred settings or genres or anything like that. (See: reams of anecdata that everyone has about how their guyfriend prefers this and their girlfriend prefers that.) It's in how some male players treat women gamers. I'm lucky enough not to have bad experiences when it comes to gaming with guys (OTOH, I have plenty bad experiences when it comes to going to the FLGS, but that's another matter), because all the boys and men I've gamed with -be it tabletop, card, console, PC, board, whatever- are used to having girls and women playing with them. It's nothing special. We grew up with it. So there was never "ohnoez a girl what do I do" or "I'll be totally creepy and inappropriate toward my female co-player."

Female gamers who do have bad experiences, though, report it's because of the way male players deal with them. It's usually one or more of the following:

(1) The above mentioned being creepy and inappropriate
(2) Being talked down to (aka mansplaining), especially when it comes to mechanics
(3) Having concerns about sexism, inappropriate behaviour, etc being diminished or dismissed ("LOL don't be so sensitive")

It's the last, especially, that makes the differences between how some male players treat female players vs their fellow male players really clear. When it comes to having problems with male players: "sit down and talk to them in a mature fashion" or "get a discussion going." With female players: "don't be so sensitive" or "you're just looking for something to be offended by" or "eh, boys will be boys." (that one, especially, is a disservice to both women AND men)

*disclaimer 1: I don't want nor claim to speak for all women gamers. This is just what I've observed when other women gamers air their concerns.

*disclaimer 2: neither do I want to say that the men on this board all engage in douchebag behaviour like I described above. Just that there are gamers that are condescending toward women and not toward men.

 

[Tiitha]

I think the reason why there are fewer female gamers is because it has to do with how people were raised in older generations. If D&D was exclusively a male game back in the 80's, then the women from generation X aren't likely to turn over to D&D now. The number of female gamers has greatly multiplied when women from generation Y were added to the equation. We love games a lot more than our moms probably do. When generation Z grows old enough to play D&D, we'll see even more female gamers join in.

There will always be a problem for males when dealing with females, but that's more of a human nature thing. I'm sure gender won't be so much of an issue when it comes to D&D, but a female joining a group of males who aren't used to females in general will always be awkward.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Oh, Pawsplay, I agree. If you've ever painted your face purple, put on a viking hat and then sat in the end zone to cheer your favourite team, well, you're probably not that far from LARPing. Fantasy Football isn't all that far from gaming either. They're certainly in the same ballpark.

No pun intended.

But, if you look at other geeky pursuits, the gender divide isn't so pronounced. After all, video gaming splits pretty evenly now, while it certainly didn't in the early days of Commodore.

Readership of spec fiction these days splits pretty evenly too. Possibly even a slight edge to women readers, for whatever reason.

But, for some reason, gaming is overwhelmingly male dominated. There has to be some reason. It's not that Geekdom is an all boys club anymore. But, for some reason or reasons, that has not translated into gamer culture.

Note, I'm　certainly not pointing any fingers at any reasons. I don't know. But, I think threads like these aren't a bad idea either. At least get some discussion going

I would guess that it is due to D&D still being seen as socially unacceptable while video games and reading for pleasure have made pretty giant leaps and bounds into becoming distinctly more socially acceptable, and that, socially speaking, women are expected to base their life choices on what is seen as being more socially acceptable for them. That is to say, as bad as men can get it for engaging in socially unacceptable pleasures, women get it a thousand times worst.