Neat GM advice on Female Gamers:

[Oryan77]

The idea that men need to act in a certain "manly" way is pretty much the definition of machismo.

Eh, take what you quoted in whatever way you want. A dude can either be awkward and weird a woman out at the gaming table, or he can be "manly", suck it up, and just be a regular nice guy to her. Call it machismo or whatever you feel like. I was just making a point and offering advice. I see nothing wrong with it.

Incidentally, I recommend against trying to cause inter-board drama.

Seeing as how you're the one that came in here blasting me like you're St. Cuthbert, I agree. You shouldn't do that. It's a waste of both our time.

What did you want us to say?

I was just wondering if female gamers appreciate threads like this that single women out and "teach" guys how to game with them. Or if it makes us look that much more weird. I've already said way more than I should have in this thread. But I could be wrong. I wanted to know if my assumptions were wrong and I was talking out of my butt.

Except yeah, there aren't posts on how to behave around guys....how to deal with sexist behaviour

So you're saying, rather than have discussion on how to play D&D with women, it should be a discussion on how to behave around women while playing D&D?
Are guys really that bad? I've played with about 6 different women and I never saw anyone I gamed with disrespect them in any way. They'd get mad at me of course, but I'm the DM and everyone gets mad at us.

Although, I did have a girl rant about me here once cause I'm such a terrible DM. And in her rant, she wrongly accused me of being sexist. But I've learned women tend to use that word in the same way a man uses the B word to a woman. Cause I sure as hell am not sexist and my opinionated & extremely confident/educated Afghan wife would not have married me if I was.

 

[Edvamp]

I think it might be better to look at areas of the hobby where the gender divide isn't so strong. LARPing, for example, seems to attract a fairly decent ratio. At least, from what I've seen, and that's purely anecdotal. I know when I've seen the Vampire LARPers in the FLGS and whatnot, there seems to be a pretty even mix.

So, it's not role play that is the problem. If it was, then LARPing wouldn't have gender balance either. So, what is the issue?

Me, I think the largest issue is the genre to be honest. Fantasy and SF are so strongly grounded in male demographics that it's very difficult to attract women to the hobby and because Fantasy and SF are the biggest games in the hobby, we're stuck. Our chosen genre drives away female games, is my honest opinion. Decades of patronistic and outright misogynistic fiction isn't helping matters any.

When I first started going to science fiction conventions I would estimate the % of women in attendance would be around 10-20% max (this was the early to mid 80's). The last 2 years I have been vending at some Anime conventions, as well as general sci-fi (like DragonCon or I-Con) and there is pretty much a 50/50 split at a good number of them. Overall it seems a large amount of the stigma about women into sci-fi has been lifted, but in my experience Anime has attracted a lot of women into the field.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Eh, take what you quoted in whatever way you want. A dude can either be awkward and weird a woman out at the gaming table, or he can be "manly", suck it up, and just be a regular nice guy to her. Call it machismo or whatever you feel like. I was just making a point and offering advice. I see nothing wrong with it.

It's possible I misread your post or the intention behind it; if so, I apologize.

Seeing as how you're the one that came in here blasting me like you're St. Cuthbert, I agree. You shouldn't do that. It's a waste of both our time.

This thread and my posts in it have nothing to do with whatever other forums I may post at. The only one stirring inter-board conflict here is you.

 

[nai_cha]

So you're saying, rather than have discussion on how to play D&D with women, it should be a discussion on how to behave around women while playing D&D?

That was not the point I was addressing when I pointed out what female gamers discuss on communities & forums. I was giving a possible answer to these points:

They aren't making threads on websites over & over about how to act when playing D&D with men.

Wouldn't it be easier to say that they're not making threads because they make up about 10% of the gaming population?

Basically, that how big a percentage we are of the gaming population has nothing to do with it- even in places where it is mostly or all female gamers, from what I've seen we're still not making threads about that topic.

I was just wondering if female gamers appreciate threads like this that single women out and "teach" guys how to game with them. Or if it makes us look that much more weird.

On one hand, anything that addresses problematic behaviour and opens a dialogue about it is cool. On the other hand, it is kind of sad that it has to be said over and over again that (1) ask us for our input, without diminishing it or devaluing it (2) treat us with respect (3) just like you would with any other gamer regardless of gender is the way to go when gaming with girls/women. Some boys/men have gotten it, others haven't. Again, I'm lucky to have had nothing but pleasant experiences when gaming with men, and it's great to hear that there are other women who haven't encountered any sexist behaviour during gaming as well. But there are women who have, and just because we haven't seen it personally doesn't mean it doesn't exist. (So yeah, with regards to what I said above, I could very well be wrong about other female gamers not making those threads.)

Although, I did have a girl rant about me here once cause I'm such a terrible DM. And in her rant, she wrongly accused me of being sexist. But I've learned women tend to use that word in the same way a man uses the B word to a woman.

I'm sorry that happened to you. It really stings to be accused of being x-ist or y-phobic, especially when one considers oneself progressive or an ally of that marginalised group. But regarding that last statement: it's disheartening to read that you think women who point out sexism or sexist behaviour are doing it merely to be insulting or have the last word, and not that they have a valid point. I don't know you, and I don't know what went down between you and your player, and I certainly don't mean to accuse you of being sexist or give the impression that I'm siding with your player. If your player was really out of line and falsely accusing you of sexism, that sucks and again, sorry to hear that happened to you. But to take that one incident then generalise that women wield "sexist" as insult instead of having a legitimate concern...well, that's a mindset that I hope isn't prevalent, because it makes it that much harder for us to deal with sexist attitudes. Just saying, in general (definitely not specifically directed @Oryan77 or the situation with his player) it's possible to engage in x-ist or y-phobic behaviour without being aware of it, and if called out on it, educate yourself about why it's problematic. Especially if you're viewing the matter from a position of privilege, because what you may think is a-ok really isn't for that group.

That's happened to me before- I don't want to think that I'm transphobic, homophobic, or classist- but I did engage in behaviour that I thought was okay, and gave other problematic behaviour I saw a pass because I didn't see what was wrong. I'm cis-bodied, straight, and not poor, which was why it wasn't obvious to me, but when told it wasn't cool, I educated myself on why. Still have a long way to go.

Onto slightly lighter topics,

So, it's not role play that is the problem. If it was, then LARPing wouldn't have gender balance either. So, what is the issue?

Me, I think the largest issue is the genre to be honest.

Actually, I'm curious about this too, if the dominant genre has anything to do with it. For me, personally, it doesn't, but it's interesting to hear other people's experiences.

 

[Merkuri]

But, if you look at other geeky pursuits, the gender divide isn't so pronounced. After all, video gaming splits pretty evenly now, while it certainly didn't in the early days of Commodore.

Do you know why video gaming is becoming more popular with women? I can sum it up with two words:

The Sims.

The video gaming hobby has changed over the past few years, and The Sims was the first game to have around a 50/50 split in gender of players. After that, game manufacturers realized that women could be interested in video games if they were the right video games. They started making and marketing more games to women.

I'm a female gamer (both in the RPG and the video game sense) and nothing turns me off from a game (or anything) like seeing it advertised with scantily-clad big-breasted women. I understand your main demographic is teenage males, but you're actively driving away the women that might have been interested in your game.

This may not translate exactly to the RPG hobby because RPGs were never advertised much to begin with, but a reputation feeds on itself. If people think of RPGs as a mostly male hobby then women will be less interested in looking into it. If you want more women in the hobby then you need to stop reinforcing the stereotype that RPGs are mostly for men.

The books themselves have been making progress in this regards but in mostly subtle ways. They do not assume that all players are male, and they pretty equally use male and female pronouns to refer to players and PCs alike. There is also a bit of momentum away from the sexy chainmail bikini female art and towards art where male and female heroes are represented (and clothed/armored) equally.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you want more females in the hobby you need to start leaving behind the idea that RPGs appeal more to men than to women. Just stop thinking that way. Don't treat women in your games any different than men in your games. Don't treat female prospective gamers any differently than male prospective gamers. If you meet a person that you think might be interested in RPGs, introduce them to it and don't worry about what type of genitalia that person has, because it's not going to matter at the table.

I feel most comfortable in a game when the other players treat me like a player, not a female player.

 

[Hussar]

But, Merkuri, isn't there a bit of a contradiction there?

Video games made great strides in attracting female players by bringing out products that targetted women. They didn't make great strides by simply treating everyone the same.

And, if we look beyond D&D, some forms of gaming have really managed to bring in a more balanced demographic - LARPing and Vampire being the two biggest examples.

Maybe D&D needs a fantasy version of Minds Eye Theater to open some pathways into the hobby.

 

[nedjer]

We seem to have a bit of a confusion over the 'man up' concept. To man up is surely to insert a spinal column aka dig deeper, show some integrity? Asserting male 'entitlements' to lord it over women may, therefore, be 'macho', but is most definitely a long way removed from man up.

And is it OK or patronising to speak in support of equal rights? It took Mary Wollstonecraft and John Stuart Mills to get women the vote in the UK.

 

[Dausuul]

But, Merkuri, isn't there a bit of a contradiction there?

Video games made great strides in attracting female players by bringing out products that targetted women. They didn't make great strides by simply treating everyone the same.

Didn't they? "The Sims" certainly was not aimed at women in particular--it was just a continuation of the SimCity, SimEarth, SimAnt, SimLife line. I'm not offhand aware of any games specifically targeting women (as opposed to not turning off women) that have been big hits. Yet the percentage of women playing video games has risen steadily.

 

[Afrodyte]

Or if it makes us look that much more weird.

I mentioned it earlier, but my answer could be summed up as, "It's pretty creepy. "

I can understand a boy having trouble relating to women other than his mom. That's part of growing up. But when grown-ass men can't quite wrap their heads around the idea that women are people and individuals, that makes me wonder where they learned about women.

 

[jonesy]

...But when grown-ass men can't quite wrap their heads around the idea that women are people and individuals, that makes me wonder where they learned about women.

The dark side of the Internet. Comicbooks. Videogames. Other boys. Their father. Their own fantasies. All the wrong places. Or not at all..