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need advice on playing lawful neutral

LightPhoenix

First Post
As people have said before, generally a LN character will stick to their code of ethics and rules. They'll adhere to this at any cost - good and evil are irrelevant, and you'll be just as willing to admonish an ally and an enemy.

A character that is LN may appear to be (or actually be, in extreme) obsessive-compulsive. Ritualist behaviors would be common - for example, after a battle the first thing you always do is wipe off your sword and tend to your equipment. To use a more common example, you might always eat the same thing for lunch every day. While your actions may at times seem random, there is in fact a highly detailed order behind them. For example, your house/room may seem messy, but you know where everything is, and your pile of clothes is always in a certain place, as is your stack of books, and your important papers. Your underwear and sock drawers are probably perfectly organized. There may not be any sort of logic behind this order, but it is still exactly definied.

Another trait a LN person is very likely to have is the need to have a plan. This may be as simple as "X blows stuff up with Y spell, Z charges in and attacks leader, A sneaks and attacks closest B", and may always stay that simple. Or, it could be as complex as possible given the information handed to you. This permeates to social situations as well - a LN person might very well believe in the "three dates" concept. A LN person might always approach a given situation the same way - grovelling at the feet of a ruler, for example. Or they may have a set strategy when bartering with a merchant - kill him and take what you want. The underlying idea is that they have things planned out, and probably tend to react poorly when this plan goes awry.

A LN character probably has a very ordered mind. They'll probably be pragmatic - X leads to Y, which leads to Z. They'll have a good head for math and science, though they might not be the best at discovering new things. They also probably have a good head for politics - knowing exactly what effect an action they take will have, and how that will blossom outward.

A LN character with high Wisdom will usually be thinking ten steps ahead of everyone else - that's why LG people are the defenders and LE people are the plotters. It's not because they have forethought, though that too is a common trait. It's more because they have a structured thought process, and can follow that out. A LN character with low Wisdom might be stubborn and predictable, always reacting the same way in every situation.

A LN character with high Intelligence will seem to be to omniscient, easily able to manipulate how a person will act. They are very good at reading signals, and have a lot of knowledge and background to draw upon when estimating how thier actions will effect others. Whereas a wise person will see more ways things are affected, an intelligent person will be able to see farther into the future. A low Intelligence LN character might not realize the consequences of their actions, despite constantly performing them.
 
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CCamfield

First Post
LightPhoenix, I have to disagree with you on most of your points. A LN character might be obsessive-compulsive, but frankly I don't think that has anything to do with their alignment. Being obsessive-compulsive is not generally a chosen behavior. Ditto with always behaving the same way, having an ordered mind, being good at math, etc. - these are all extrapolations of the alignment which are by no means necessarily the case.

I don't see anything in the alignment which prevents a LN character from being impulsive, even - although he would keep his personal code and/or the laws of the land in mind.

Alignment isn't supposed to be a straitjacket, and I see your advice as heading in that direction - no insult intended.
 
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Hardhead

Explorer
I agree with the person who said you play a character, and that character has an alignment. That being said, you aren't a "good" character. To me, that means you probably display a strong lack of empathy for other people. It's not necessarily very important to you if people are hurt by your actions (especially if it's not serious injury).

I read an article on CNN recently that when companies used personality tests to find out if an employee was desirable, it turned out that people good in sales were borderline psychopaths (schemers that display a great lack of empathy). These people are the kinds of people I think of as something-neutral. If they're working well in the structured corporate environment, they're probably LN.

The character I'm currently playing is a Star Elf in the Realms. He's neutral. He doesn't go out of his way to hurt people, but he feels that most of the time the end justifies the means.
 

BiggusGeekus@Work

Community Supporter
Vahailor from the CRPG Planescape:Torment was a totally kick-butt Lawful Neutral. Very scary guy.

He was a mercykiller in life (basically like a cop in the Planescape metaverse) but when he died, his obession for justice remained behind and animated his armor and battleaxe. He never hesitated in passing judgement and felt it was in his right to be judge, jury, and executioner (guess which he liked doing the most!)
 

MerakSpielman

First Post
Many people are saying that a LN character would be care a great deal about their code of honor (or the codes and laws of whatever organization of which they were a part), and I agree, but I also consider this to be a mainstay of all Lawful characters. Lawful Good does this because they believe in righteousness as the best way to benefit society as a whole. Lawful Evil does this because they feel it is the best way to benefit themselves. Lawful Neutal does this either A) for both those reasons equally (it will benefit society and me) or for neither of those reasons (I don't give a **** about anybody else or myself, rules are there to be followed. Period.)

At least, that's my take on the matter.
 

Wraith Form

Explorer
LN = soldier who follows orders strictly, without deviation, without injecting personal thought or morals into their decision(s). You ever hear of the old expression "the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law"? LN doesn't care about the spirit of the law. They follow their orders, instructions, codes or mandates strictly and unwaveringly to the best of their ability. That's where the "Robocop" approach breaks down: once Robo realizes he was formerly Murphy, he "loosens" his adherance to the rigid structure of the law.

(That's how we always play LN, in my group.)

[ejja_1, nice avatar... :rolleyes: ] :D
 
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I'll be playing a LN Gnome Necromancer soon.

He's a very serious gnome. Doesn't like pranks and all. He's also a business man, an honest business man. An honest Embaulmer. He doesn't fit well in any society (people bore him (because they are stupid) or annoy him (because they are too cheerful - 21 Int, 6 Cha), so he hangs around with cadavers, until he can animate his own friends. He won't, he couldn't take the corpses that were brought to him, that would be stealing and abusing the client's trust, but he doesn't mind taking their money even in their time of grief.

When adventuring, he'll get along well with the OotBI (who's also LN - a devotee of his art) but the bard will probably get on his nerves.

He'll advocate a structured group, implement tactics, and make sure that every one gets their fair share of treasure.

That's how I plan to play my LN gnome necromancer.

AR
 

Hardhead

Explorer
I disagree with everyone that says a LN character has a "peronal code of honr." A LN character is probably self-serving. He isn't trying to actively harm people, and won't kill a baby for money or anything, but on the other hand, he doesn't go out of his way to help people, and has no compunction about trampling over other's feelings, or causing injury/inconvienence to another if it beneftis them (not lethal injury). A LN character is probably not "honorable" by any but the most stretched definition. An honorable lawful person is LG.

Now, if by "personal code of honor," they meant "personal code of conduct," I'd agree. Lawfuls tend to be organized, and even if they don't support structure and lawfullness for any moral reasons (and they probably don't, being non-good), they do support it in genearl because they find working within a system a good way to accomplish it. As a real world example:

A CEO who looks out for his employees and takes pay cuts himself to benefit his employees while being a wiz at the organizational and buisness side is LG (an example would be Apple's Steve Jobs, who worked for $1 per year for about five years when Apple was facing lean times).

A CEO who crushes his opposition to get to the top by spreading lies about others up for the top spot and lays off workforce just to boost his stock is LN. The execs at Enron would be LN.

A CEO who had a whistle-blower killed would be LE (though, of course, there are very few actually "Evil" people IRL).
 

LightPhoenix

First Post
CCamfield said:
LightPhoenix, I have to disagree with you on most of your points. A LN character might be obsessive-compulsive, but frankly I don't think that has anything to do with their alignment. Being obsessive-compulsive is not generally a chosen behavior. Ditto with always behaving the same way, having an ordered mind, being good at math, etc. - these are all extrapolations of the alignment which are by no means necessarily the case.

I don't see anything in the alignment which prevents a LN character from being impulsive, even - although he would keep his personal code and/or the laws of the land in mind.

Alignment isn't supposed to be a straitjacket, and I see your advice as heading in that direction - no insult intended.
None taken! :)

I tried to imply in every case that these are possibilities, and not absolutes. Apparently not well enough. I completely agree that you play a character, and that defines your alignment. Hell, I'm all for characters not picking an alignment at all, and let the DM decide alignment when and if it's really necessary. I'm also a fan of the d20 Modern allegiances system, since IMO it's much more realistic.

That said, strictly by the PHB, Good and Evil are absolutes. I believe the same applies to Law and Chaos. That's why the vast majority of people are TN IMO, with the next common alignments being NG and NE. Most people just are not strongly enough affiliated with Law or Chaos to be labelled as such.

Even so, the traits I listed were predispositions... just like a Chaotic person is prone to being impulsive. Again, I didn't make that clear enough.

To address specific points:

1) OC - my exact quote is "A character that is LN may appear to be (or actually be, in extreme) obsessive-compulsive". No, I'm not saying any LN person is obsessive-compulsive. However, a strongly Lawful person is governed by rules, and those rules must be upheld. Those rules could include never killing a foe, always opening a door for a lady, or always keeping your toothbrush in a certain spot. One interpretation of that is that you would appear obsessive.

2) LN people could be impulsive, yes. Are they likely to be? No. Impulsive behavior implies (but again, does not always mean) acting on a whim. That is almost by definition one of the traits of Chaotic creatures. Personally, I'd rule any Lawful character that acted impulsively consistently would lapse into Neutral and then to Chaotic. It's just not something that's ordered or structured.

3) Which leads to my third contention. LN characters are used to following sets of rules (honor, law, what have you). More than anything else, a LN character believes in rules. Math and science are, at their core, sets of rules, as is language. To me, this implies that LN characters are predisposed (again, no certainty) to fields where rules are paramount - accounting, chemistry, and the like.

4) Politics works somewhat the same way. LN characters live by rules, and to do so it's very possible (but not always) that they interpret the world around them based on rules as well, and try to put order to it. That can lead to being very good with people. There are general rules in the way people react - seeing someone tense up to attack, yawning when someone is bored and/or tired, and blushing when embarassed. A LN person picks up on these simple ones, and may pick up on more complex ones as well. A high CHA LN character would probably pick up on these quite easily.

In the same way I talked about predisposition to subjects, I imagine LN characters are prone to being good at card games (which have defined rules) and good at reading tells (unconscious things people do during a game). The best con artists and gamblers probably would be LN, not Neutral or Chaotic.

5) A quick note - a LN character may or may not have any care of "laws of the land". It's the personal code that matters first and foremost, everyone else comes second. It's great if your code meshes with the local laws, but if it doesn't, you're not going to change for them. I mean, if your code is "kill everyone you meet", then you're going to do just that regardless of local laws (though this is lapsing into LE territory). That's not Chaotic - that's a clearly defined set of rules, and hence Lawful.
 

AnthonyJ

First Post
Hardhead said:
I disagree with everyone that says a LN character has a "peronal code of honr." A LN character is probably self-serving. He isn't trying to actively harm people, and won't kill a baby for money or anything, but on the other hand, he doesn't go out of his way to help people, and has no compunction about trampling over other's feelings, or causing injury/inconvienence to another if it beneftis them (not lethal injury). A LN character is probably not "honorable" by any but the most stretched definition.

Um..you're misdefining neutral, what you're describing is LE. To quote the SRD:
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships

By extrapolation, they probably also have compunctions about causing lesser harm; they just won't go out of their way to be helpful.

Now, for what it means to be lawful:

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Well, that's pretty clear -- and the business with the cohort clearly violates 'keeping their word', and the business with judging clearly violates 'respect authority'.

Hardhead said:
A CEO who crushes his opposition to get to the top by spreading lies about others up for the top spot and lays off workforce just to boost his stock is LN. The execs at Enron would be LN.

Actually, that's NE. An LN CEO would certainly lay off workers if it would boost the bottom line, but will attempt to gain power within the normal structure of the company, rather than through external means (such as spreading lies), and doesn't have any special interest in crushing his opposition.
 

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