Need help balance checking a homebrew race

[turd ferguson]

So how about this?

1. Ability score increase. (Elf)+2 dex (woodelf subrace ability score increase) +1 cha = 3 points
2. Speed: 35 (Elf is 30. Woodelf subrace: fleet foot. your base walking speed increases to 35). = .5 points
3. (Instead of Darkvision) Athletics with double proficiency (expertise) = .5 points
Question: Do I have to have to choose athletics first before I can get the double proficiency and if I did choose it, would it affect the double proficiency in any way?
4. Keen senses: You have proficiency in the Acrobatics skill. = .5 points
Question: Why acrobatics vs. perception?
5. Monkey God Ancestry. Advantage on skill check for climbing and swimming. = .5 points
6. Monkey cunning. You have advantage on all Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws against magic. = 2 pts.
7. Monkey armor training. You have proficiency in light and medium armor. = 1 point
8. Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling now, mist, and other natural phenomena. = .5 points

Checking with: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ViqLSEN67mmd2Lo_OJ-H5YX0fccsfI97kFaqx7V1Dmw/pub I'm 1 point over (I have 8.5 points whereas compared to the Wood Elf, he has 7.5). Depending on what the answer is on proficiency on athletics, I might just drop and Ability scores just to +1 dex +1 cha. to get it viable.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

3. (Instead of Darkvision) Athletics with double proficiency (expertise) = .5 points
Question: Do I have to have to choose athletics first before I can get the double proficiency and if I did choose it, would it affect the double proficiency in any way?

I was suggesting both gaining proficiency in Athletics and also doubling the proficiency bonus.
(You wanted Wukong to be good at climbing and swimming, so I initially thought about just doubling prof bonus for those activities. But Sun Wukong was more renowned for his speed and great leaps. Once you're thinking about granting bonuses for so many aspects of Athletics, its easier to just give a flat bonus to it all. )

Question: Why acrobatics vs. perception?

Wukong don't strike me as inherently perceptive. But tumbling and balancing sound like things that they would be naturally capable at.

5. Monkey God Ancestry. Advantage on skill check for climbing and swimming. = .5 points

I suggest removing this if you're already getting expertise in Athletics above.

6. Monkey cunning. You have advantage on all Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws against magic. = 2 pts.

This is pretty powerful: its the biggest bonus of another race already.

7. Monkey armor training. You have proficiency in light and medium armor. = 1 point

I'm still not entirely sure why the Wukong get this. Doesn't seem to fit with their attitude or ancestry.

8. Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling now, mist, and other natural phenomena. = .5 points

Likewise. Sun Wukong hid by changing shape rather than being naturally stealthy.

Checking with: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ViqLSEN67mmd2Lo_OJ-H5YX0fccsfI97kFaqx7V1Dmw/pub I'm 1 point over (I have 8.5 points whereas compared to the Wood Elf, he has 7.5). Depending on what the answer is on proficiency on athletics, I might just drop and Ability scores just to +1 dex +1 cha. to get it viable.

Is that document what your table uses to balance races?

 

[Coroc]

If you are a fan of the monkey king then they should get proficency in quarterstaff by all means. Although i do not see a big Advantage in making them proficient in your set of weapons (aka a Special selection of Monk weapons?) although you should not make them usable with dexterity aka Finesse also.

Agree with others in this thread that Magic resistance is much to much. Give them resistance in either fire or water Magic unless this is plotwise important that that they need both.

Attributes: go for +2 dex and +1 str. Monkeys are strong and dextrous. Leave out the check rule. It also makes sense with your selection of weapons, some are STR weapons. Otoh monkeys are not very charismatic, in fact especially Rhesus monkeys, i mean thats not exactly king kong is it?

movement 35 ok, give them Advantage on climb and swim checks if it is the theme. Alternately give them prof in athletics and acrobatics, that helps you to sort out border cases at your table (e.g. climb a waterfall )

Prof perception is a good skill but it does not unbalance things since you can get this for other race / Background Combos too

 

[turd ferguson]

Ok how about this. Removed Advantage on skill check for climbing and swimming, proficiency in armor, and mask of the wild. Added prof. in athletics with double prof. on checks, proficiency in acrobatics, and level 1 spell disguise self.

Coroc, I agree with you. So again, I am adding quarterstaff, glaive, halberd, and pike. These are not powerful weapons and also there is very little difference between all of them. This, well at least I think so, is much more for flavor than anything else as of course I could have put proficiencies in stronger weapons.

1. Ability score increase. (Elf)+2 dex (woodelf subrace ability score increase) +1 str (Changed charisma to strength = 3 points

2. Speed: 35 (Elf is 30. Woodelf subrace: fleet foot. your base walking speed increases to 35). = .5 points

3. (Instead of Darkvision) Inborn Strength. You are considered proficient in the Athletics skill and add double your proficiency bonus to the check, instead of your normal proficiency bonus. Athletics with double proficiency (expertise) = 1 point

4. Keen senses: You have proficiency in the Acrobatics skill. = .5 points

5. Weapon proficiency: Quarterstaff, glaive, halberd, and pike = .5 points

6. Disguise self. You make yourself—including your clothing, armor, weapons, and other belongings on your person—look different until the spell ends or until you use your action to dismiss it. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller and can appear thin, fat, or in between. You can't change your body type, so you must adopt a form that has the same basic arrangement of limbs. Otherwise, the extent of the illusion is up to you.

The changes wrought by this spell fail to hold up to physical inspection. For example, if you use this spell to add a hat to your outfit, objects pass through the hat, and anyone who touches it would feel nothing or would feel your head and hair. If you use this spell to appear thinner that you are, the hand of someone who reaches out to touch you would bump into you while it was seemingly still in mid air.

To discern that you are disguised, a creature can use its action to inspect your appearance and must succeed on an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. = 1 point

Yes, Cap'n Kobold, that is what I've been using as a frame to balance my character. So as I said I'm basing my race off of Wood elves, because they are the most similar to mine and what I've come up with, as far as points go:

Wood elves: 7.5
Wukong: 6.5

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'm not sure whether proficiency in quarterstaff is necessary: - Are there any classes that aren't already proficient with it? Glaive/Halberds are is some of the best optimisation weapons around due to feat synergy though.

Disguise self: What are the limitations/uses per day?

As written, it looks rather more powerful than the changeling Shapechanger racial ability, which cannot affect clothes or equipment.
Note that Changelings get +1 to Dex and Cha, proficiency in Deception, and the Shapechanger trait. That's it. Its the major ability of the race, not a minor ability in a grab-bag of already powerful racial abilities.

I'm finding it hard to believe that any racial ability balance document thinks an at-will level one spell is only a point. While I can't read the document, the points value cost for the Shapechanger trait would be around 5 points from what you've posted.

 

[Coroc]

The quarterstaff comes from the monkey king Story, a famous chinese fable. The monkey king had a special quarterstaff which he could command magically to make it any size from toothpick to several kilometres. Of course this halped him greatly in his adventures.

Of course most classes seem to have prof. in quarterstaff already, so it does not make sense to extra mention this, but eventually a weaker wersion of this monkey king magic quarterstaff as a racial ability would be cool. Maybe These creatures can make a quarterstaff small as a toothpick to hide it in their fur and extend it to 10 feet (like a pole) to use it to stake a boat or cross a chasm.

 

[turd ferguson]

Hey Capn' Kobold, so I don't keep on chasing my tail, would it be possible for you to edit the character as you see fit. I think it would be much easier and faster so we can finalize this race. I would really appreciate it, I really believe that you have the best idea about how this character would be set up.

 

[turd ferguson]

Actually I think the build is fine.

1.+2+1 to ability score (same as wood elf)
2. speed 35 (same as wood elf)
3. At Kobold's suggestion I stuck with gaining proficiency in Athletics and also doubling the proficiency bonus.
4. At Kobold's suggestion proficiency at acrobatics (swapped from Keen Senses).
5. Weapon proficiency (changed from Elf weapon training ):Quarterstaff, glaive, halberd, and pike (again, following a wood elf's traits, this should fit no problem) Coroc understands the need to have this, because of Sun Wukong's story and how using these weapons would be important to them as they emulate him as much as they can. Again, this is more for flavor, if not I would have put, "Proficient in martial weapons."

Also, Cap'n, there are only 4 out of 12 classes that allow characters to use martial weapons, and there is not one other class that uses any of the four proficiently.

6. Disguise self. (Instead of mask of the Wild) You make yourself—including your clothing, armor, weapons, and other belongings on your person—look different until the spell ends or until you use your action to dismiss it. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller and can appear thin, fat, or in between. You can't change your body type, so you must adopt a form that has the same basic arrangement of limbs. Otherwise, the extent of the illusion is up to you.

The changes wrought by this spell fail to hold up to physical inspection. For example, if you use this spell to add a hat to your outfit, objects pass through the hat, and anyone who touches it would feel nothing or would feel your head and hair. If you use this spell to appear thinner that you are, the hand of someone who reaches out to touch you would bump into you while it was seemingly still in mid air.

To discern that you are disguised, a creature can use its action to inspect your appearance and must succeed on an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. This can be used once a day can be used after a short or long rest.

Actually Cap'n, I think disguise self is WAY much more weaker than shapechange. Disguise self is an illusion spell whereas, shapchanger is a transmutation spell. So there is a big difference between looking like one vs. changing to one. And there are more cons vs pro.

Disguise self cons:
1.You only look different
2. You can't change body type
3. You must adopt a form that has the basic arrangement of limbs.
4. Fails on physical inspection.

Whereas in shapechanger you have these strong pros:
1. You assume the form of a different creature.
2. If you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. (Extra HP)
3. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hitpoints, you aren’t knocked unconscious.
4. You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them.
5. Also you said, " ...the changeling Shapechanger racial ability, which cannot affect clothes or equipment." Actually, "When you transform, you choose whether (A) your equipment falls to the ground, (B) merges into the new form, or is (C) worn by it.

Again, comparing this race vs. the woodland elf, they share many similarities. Only one trait was completely changed. Instead of Fey Ancestry, we chose gaining proficiency in Athletics and also doubling the proficiency bonus.

Other than that, I would say this is a fair trade off that doesn't have any major skills that make the Wukong OP.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

5. Weapon proficiency (changed from Elf weapon training ):Quarterstaff, glaive, halberd, and pike (again, following a wood elf's traits, this should fit no problem) Coroc understands the need to have this, because of Sun Wukong's story and how using these weapons would be important to them as they emulate him as much as they can. Again, this is more for flavor, if not I would have put, "Proficient in martial weapons."

I'm aware that his staff was a powerful magic item that sun Wukong found. I was just pointing out that mentioning proficiency in quarterstaff may be unnecessary because I don't think that you can generate a character that isn't already proficient in it.

Actually Cap'n, I think disguise self is WAY much more weaker than shapechange. Disguise self is an illusion spell whereas, shapchanger is a transmutation spell. So there is a big difference between looking like one vs. changing to one. And there are more cons vs pro.

Disguise self cons:
1.You only look different
2. You can't change body type
3. You must adopt a form that has the basic arrangement of limbs.
4. Fails on physical inspection.

Whereas in shapechanger you have these strong pros:
1. You assume the form of a different creature.
2. If you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. (Extra HP)
3. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hitpoints, you aren’t knocked unconscious.
4. You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them.
5. Also you said, " ...the changeling Shapechanger racial ability, which cannot affect clothes or equipment." Actually, "When you transform, you choose whether (A) your equipment falls to the ground, (B) merges into the new form, or is (C) worn by it.

I'm not sure where you're getting all that from. Changeling Shapechanger trait is:

Shapechanger. As an action, you can polymorph into any humanoid of your size that you have seen, or back into your true form. However, your equipment does not change with you. If you die, you revert to your natural appearance. Its not like an actual Polymorph or Shapechange spell that grants temp HP or special abilities.

If you want the Wukong to be a race of shapechangers, then I'd suggest that you use the Changeling as a basis rather than the Wood Elf. I think that it depends on your vision of the race, and what sort of abilities they have naturally (as opposed to learned though class features.)
Ultimately however, while I can give opinions as to vision and balance, its your game and your DM that has the final say.