D&D 5E Need help dealing with two bard campaign

[Quickleaf]

Ok, so I'm running a fairly standard dnd campaign. Small town lots of problems etc.. but the thing I need help with is the players. My two pcs are bard one a jester and one a lore college. The jester at level three has a 20 char and receives a +28 bonus to his persuasion skill which is ridiculous (or is that just me?). Along with high stats they have also taken feats that destroy any chance of having a tense rp segment in campaign (you know with the bard either using the diplomat feat to charm the person or the other bard rolling a 44min persuasion...) So if anyone could let me know how the best way to deal with this is that would be great!

First, the maths are *way* off! A 3rd-level Bard (Jester) with Charisma 20 (+5) and double proficiency bonus (+4 instead of +2) in Persuasion thanks to Diplomat feat should have Persuasion +9.

Second, it sounds like the ability you're really concerned about is the part of the Diplomat feats that says (paraphrasing):

[SECTION]If you talk to a creature you aren't fighting for 1 minute, you can make a Persuasion vs. Insight check. If you succeed, the target is charmed by you while you remain within 60 feet and for 1 minute thereafter.[/SECTION]

"Charmed" has a very specific rules definition in 5e...it doesn't make them agree with you automatically or be your friend...

[SECTION]Charmed

• A charmed creature can’t Attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful Abilities or magical effects.
• The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.

[/SECTION]

That's all it does. So you could still run a tense negotiations that relies mainly on role-playing; all the Bard (Jester)'s feat does is (possibly) prevent the creature they're negotiating with from devolving into combat then and there. So, for example, if they were negotiating with a manticore, and the manticore doesn't agree to their terms, it might say something like this as the PCs leave, "You've been polite for men, so I will return you the same courtesy. I shall let you pass this time...but if you do not leave my canyon by nightfall or if you return again...I shall eat you surely."

Your players want a game heavy on interaction with NPCs. Think of their selecting 2 bards like ordering items off a menu: "We'd like interaction and intrigue with a side of skullduggery...twice over...thank you, DM!" The last thing you want to do is to rely heavily on skill checks that obviate actual role-playing.

 

[hastur_nz]

It also sounds like the players are choosing to make ability checks. The DM is the one who decides that. So if you don't think their approach to a goal is successful, then it isn't, no roll. Players only roll when the DM says so and that's when the DM determines there's an uncertain outcome. Otherwise, they just succeed or fail outright.

This is a very key point... dice are to be used when the result is uncertain; in those cases, the DM sets a difficulty and what type of check to use, then the player can roll vs that DC. You are completely right to say if something is completely impossible, just as you are right to say something is an automatic success; you are also completely right to say what type of Check they should use - that's the DM's job, to adjudicate the actions of the players. Don't ever let dice get in the way of common sense, i.e. what makes sense in the campaign and game world that you are running. The books try to tell you this, but TBH they are not 100% clear.

Simple example: the players are negotiating with the King, and are trying to get him to give them a magic item to help in their quest to get the McGuffin, and he doesn't have any magic items, or has specific reasons to refuse - don't let the players roll Persuasion, just answer for the King as you see fit.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Please post pics of character sheets

Sent from my VS990 using EN World mobile app

 

[FrogReaver]

Oh wow. Multiple bards in a group is scary when it comes to most out of combat activities.

Here's the thing. Starting out with a 20 in the main stat was allowed. That leaves open all kinds of feats and more bardic inspiration dice earlier. Your players took 2 of the single best class to use in dealing with out of combat situations. Expect those to be a breeze.

 

[CapnZapp]

Your players want a game heavy on interaction with NPCs. Think of their selecting 2 bards like ordering items off a menu: "We'd like interaction and intrigue with a side of skullduggery...twice over...thank you, DM!" The last thing you want to do is to rely heavily on skill checks that obviate actual role-playing.

While everything you say is true, D&D is and has always been a game where rules designers hand out abilities that completely shortcircuit challenges and roleplaying.

The list of "I don't need to give a motivation, look I rolled a 22!" or "We can't get lost, it says so right here on my charsheet" or "I know you said the King was hostile, but according to the rules I've just turned him into Friendly" abilities is almost endless (flying over monsters, passwalling deeper into the dungeon, find-the-pathing past any mazes, detect evilling any murderers etc etc), and so are the traps you can fall into as a fledgling DM not yet sure of his or her powers to just take the player(s) aside and "say no" (tell them they need to change or they're out).

Again, what you said was good advice. It's just easy to forget how hostile D&D has been historically to DM fiat, and how much more player-empowering it can be compared to other games.

All which is to say: if your players want to screw your campaign over, better find new players, since D&D is not the game to engage in rules lawyerism in with combative players.

 

[Hillsy7]

I'll take a look it does seem high but still has w do you deal with pcs like that

1) As people have mentioned, you're maths is wrong. Think someone mentioned you might be adding CHA 20 to the mod instead of CHA (+5)
2) There's also a reason why with bounded accuracy, 5e suggests point buy and standard array up to 15.
3) As mentioned already, Expertise doesn't stack with the Diplomat feat.
4) I'm guessing they started with Variant human to get the feat, knowing they wanted a crazy diplomacy/persuasion/CHA skilled character - which begs the question: armed with the nous to put this combination of Class-Race-Feat together based around a single skill....why are they letting you make honest mistakes like allowing a +28 Persuasion check without checking for themselves. It sounds to me like they know it's wrong, but are happy to take it. This isn't cool - once this is straightened out, I'd assess whether Iwant to be in game with people who'd let a mistake like that slide just because it benefits them.....In my opinion that is....
5) This kind of crazy munchkin, screw-combat I want bantz, bypass issues through chat, Locke Lamora kinda game is what they want to play. In which case, either let them, or part ways. There's nowt wrong with having various tones of gameplay available, but it is important everyone at the table is OK with the tone you've chosen
6) On a more mechanical level: Hostile is a relative thing. If I don't want to, say, let my daughter date any man that isn't a Priest, then sure as hell i'm going to be Hostile to anyone saying otherwise. I might not be physically hostile, but that idea is going to be like eating a handful of wasps to me. Hostility in social interactions is your "attacking you" stance in combat. Use it.

It's perfectly reasonable for a charm attempt to fail because you want to date the farmers daughter, but succeed if immediately afterwards you ask to borrow one of his 20 horses.....

7) Also, possible doesn't mean reasonable. Learn to use high DCs where applicable.

I think that's enough for now....there's been lots of good advice so far...

 

[Eltab]

You are in dire need of reading the rulebook to see just exactly what it does / doesn't say.

When you find out how your players are hosing you / where you made mistakes, sit down with the players in question - I recommend separately - to describe what you have found. Explain what the changes will be, and how that will affect their character and 'standard behaviors' shown to date. Do this away-from-table so they can soak in the information and maybe change their character before the next session. Let them adapt, don't nerf them in front of friends.

 

[BeaniBum]

So I looked at his sheet and did the math and he made a mistake he should get a +18 to his checks


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[Raith5]

Oh wow. Multiple bards in a group is scary when it comes to most out of combat activities. .

So true. There is one bard in my party and one is more than enough! Everything in life for a bard is skill check of some sort.

 

[Soul Stigma]

So I looked at his sheet and did the math and he made a mistake he should get a +18 to his checks


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+18? Something still isn't right.