Need help with a House Rule feat

[Adimus]

Hello ENworld!

I'm new to posting and this is my first thread, but I've enjoyed visiting here for some time and finally decided to join in

I have a dilemma.

A player in my group is playing a samurai (cavelier), and he and I have both noticed that most of the classes in Pathfinder have an 'Extra' feat--that is, feats like 'Extra Channeling', or 'Extra Rage', 'Extra Ki'. Upon leveling he asked me if he could take 'Extra Challenge'. I assumed it existed. I noticed that these 'extra' feats usually appear in the book following the one in which the class first appeared, APG had 'Extra' for the core classes, and UC and UM had them for base classes, so I looked in UC. Not there. Checked PFSRD. Nothing. Several players in my group are opposed to houseruling the feat because they think it would be overpowered.

Is not having the feat merely an oversight by Paizo, or perhaps a feat they just haven't gotten around to yet, or do is 1 Extra Challenge per day actually overpowered? He would like to have it because he PrCed and only gets two/day. Do you guys think it would be okay to houserule?

 

[Noir le Lotus]

The Extra feats are not available for each class. There is no Extra Smite for the paladin.

Smite and Challenge abilities are made to be used in only important fights, against major opponents. Contrary to Rage or Grit, they are not made to be used at every fight. I think that's why you cannot gain more daily use of these abilities.

With an Extra Challenge feat, your PC could be able to use his Challenge at every fight, making him more powerful that what he should be.

 

[billd91]

Noir le Lotus's rationale is pretty good from a systemic look at certain feats like extra smite/extra challenge. But if you don't think it will be a big deal for your campaign, making a house rule feat probably won't be a problem.

I would suggest that you could put a prerequisite on the feat so that the character couldn't pick up that 3rd challenge sooner than a single-classes samurai would get it.

 

[Jester David]

The feats usually add extra rounds to abilities used every fight as Noir le Lotus suggests. Significantly more often than one to seven times depending on level.
It is a little too powerful.

There's two ways I can see that feat working.

Instead of granting an extra challenge, instead it might allow the ability recharge under certain circumstances.
The other option is to change targets of a challenge, effectively gaining a second challenge.
Both should have a situational limit, such as the target of the challenge dying in less than a round (before the cavalier can act twice), as well as a limited number of uses. For simplicity's sake, say half the number of challenges rounded up. This makes the feat less an extra use of the signature ability, and more something that allows it not to be wasted.

 

[Adimus]

Thanks everybody for the advice so far!

Both should have a situational limit, such as the target of the challenge dying in less than a round (before the cavalier can act twice), as well as a limited number of uses. For simplicity's sake, say half the number of challenges rounded up. This makes the feat less an extra use of the signature ability, and more something that allows it not to be wasted.

I like the recharge idea, it might be a good alternative. It would help him when his opponent was 'unworthy' by not wasting a challenge, which has happened several times and seems to frustrate him (He is a Sword Saint, so using Iajutsu he's beheaded/brutally bifurcated several opponents whom he's misjudged in power.)

BillD you have an important piece of fine print there: make sure he doesn't exceed normal class limitation. I don't think he would abuse the feat by taking it over and over but for the sake of being thorough in my ruling I'd better include that.

 

[Steel_Wind]

The Extra feats are not available for each class. There is no Extra Smite for the paladin.

Smite and Challenge abilities are made to be used in only important fights, against major opponents. Contrary to Rage or Grit, they are not made to be used at every fight. I think that's why you cannot gain more daily use of these abilities.

With an Extra Challenge feat, your PC could be able to use his Challenge at every fight, making him more powerful that what he should be.

This is absolutely balls-on correct, imo.

 

[Jester David]

I like the recharge idea, it might be a good alternative. It would help him when his opponent was 'unworthy' by not wasting a challenge, which has happened several times and seems to frustrate him

That was the idea. Per day mechanics are tricky like that, especially when it only applies to one target. It's very easy to guess wrong, especially as a new player unfamiliar with the rules. Or to always keep a challenge held back "just in case there's another fight".

Unworthy Opponent
Prerequisite: challenge class feature
Benefit: If your opponent falls before even venturing a counter-attack, you can find a new more worthy opponent. When your challenge ability ends before the target of your challenge can take a turn you regain the use of the expended challenge. This does not apply if the target is unable to attack (such as being dazed or paralysed), chooses to attack a different creature, or delays. You can only regain a challenge once each day.
Normal: The challenge remains in effect until the target is dead, unconscious, or until the combat ends.

There ya go, something that lets you sneak an extra challenge without being broken.

Design thoughts:
I made the trigger the opponent attacking as that made nice flavour "I challenged someone and they died before striking back. Unworthy!" and because it would always be less than a full round.
The feat still has some potential to be abused, through challenging a mook and the focusing fire to regain the challenge. But that takes some party cooperation, and can be easily thrown off with bad rolls and the monster surviving. And still depends on the party acting before the monster; if the opponent acts quickly there's a very small kill window. The easy abuse is for everyone to delay until after the cavalier then strike, but that's a whole lot of work to squeeze a little extra abuse from a feat.
I thought about rephrasing it to be something like "challenge ends before you or your opponent can attack" for the situations when the cavalier challenges from across the battlefield, rushes forward but can't quite reach, then has the opponent die before being able to attack. But any phrasing would allow cavaliers to challenge and then just avoid that target, and I'd have to stack a couple sentences of limiting and clarifying text.
I was also going to add the statement "your opponent chooses not to attack" as one of the conditions that does not trigger the feat, but I decided a surrendering opponent ends combat, which would also end the challenge. In that event, I'd want my challenge back as well.
--edit--
added "delay" reference. forgot to add per/day limit.

 

[Ramaster]

In my opinion, a feat that lets you add up your total character level to determine the amount of daily Challenges is the best solution. So, if he is a Samurai 6/PrC 10, he gets as many daily Challenges as a 16 level Samurai.

This would make it similar to the Trait that lets your add levels on non-caster clases to your Caster Level for a chosen Casting Class (Try saying that three time fast!)

 

[N'raac]

In my opinion, a feat that lets you add up your total character level to determine the amount of daily Challenges is the best solution. So, if he is a Samurai 6/PrC 10, he gets as many daily Challenges as a 16 level Samurai.

This would make it similar to the Trait that lets your add levels on non-caster clases to your Caster Level for a chosen Casting Class (Try saying that three time fast!)

Isn't there a feat that boosts caster level by +X (I think +4) limited to character level? That sets a decent precedent for this kind of feat. I would suggest caster level is much more universal to a spellcaster than challenges (or smites or similar for other classes) per day is to a cavalier so maybe more than +4 is warranted, but a similar approach could work.

 

[Liquidsabre]

If you're looking for a homebrew feat I think Ramaster has the right idea.