Need help with a PC class design...

[AFGNCAAP]

Hello,

Basically, I need a bit of help trying to figure out how to implement a campaign concept for the spellcasters in a homebrew that I'm working on. But first, a bit of background:

The homebrew setting is a world based off of a world I've designed for some fantasy stories I've been working on for well over a decade. With the release of Unearthed Arcana, I feel that I now have better options that will help enable me to create a D&D/d20 game that best fits this setting idea. One of the UA options that I'm using is the generic classes.

Now, I'm having a bit of a problem with the Spellcaster class. Basically, the limit on the # of spells known doesn't jive with the amount of magical knowledge that a mage in the setting would have (esp. with some kinds of spellcasters). However, the Spellcaster's ability to cast spells without preparation (or need for a spellbook) is accurate. So, I'm trying to figure out an effective way to implement these changes without really creating an uber-class.

First off, here are some basics on magic/mages in the setting:

• No divine magic--the powers above (& below) do not bestow magical ability to their worshippers/priests. All magic is arcane magic.
• A Mage's ability to use magic is related by a having one particulary strong/developed/advanced mental faculty.
• Mages can learn any type of spell they wish.
• There is no such thing as psionics, per se. Psionics/psychic power is merely another term/label for magic.
• A Mage is not limited in how much he/she knows--Mages have arcane power, and choose/learn how to use/apply that power.
• One has to be born a Mage in order to become a Mage. Basically, you either have the ability, or you don't (sorta like the Force).
• Mages can innately sense magical energies, & the level of magical power present--it does not mean they can instinctively/immediately tell what form the magic has taken or how it has been applied, but just that it's there & how much of it is there.
• Each Mage has his/her own style/interpretation/use of magic. This is reflected in how his/her spells manifest (the color of the arcane energy, the form the magics take, etc.). All spells from a certain Mage will follow this pattern/theme--it's a reflection of the Mage's mind & the Mage himself/herself.
• Mages, especially if properly trained, generally do not need material components for spells; only in a few instances does a Mage need a material object in order for a certain spell to work (esp. when casting an incantation).
• Very few spells actually creater/manipulate elements/elemental energy--for the most part, it's just eldritch power that temporarily takes on the form of an energy or element (if the Mage so desires).
• Those who have been properly trained (at the right time in their lives) in the use of magic are typically more powerful than those who are self-taught.
• Most (if not all) forms of magic/magic spells is basically the use & expansion of certain basic forms of knowledge/ability regarding the use of magic; in essence, a more powerful spell like fireball is basically the advanced use/application of a weaker spell like burning hands.
• Some spells are so powerful/unique/rare that they can only be used by the Mage preparing them ahead of time, performing/casting them in a ceremony, with the right materials available, while at a specific location/time that is rich with magical power.

So, what does all of this mean? Well...

• All Spellcasters are arcane spellcasters (though divine-based class ability feats like Turn Undead can be gained in the spellcaster has the right prerequisite spells);
• A Spellcaster can use Int, Wis, or Cha as the key ability for determining magic/spells (selected at character creation, & it can't be changed);
• You have to start play as a Spellcaster in order to be one (or, you have to select a feat at 1st level that will allow you to multi-class as a Spellcaster later on--sort of like being Force-sensitive in WEG's Star Wars RPG);
• A Spellcaster can learn any spell (from any list), & know as many spells as he/she wishes (with some limits--see below);
• Spellcasters basically have the ability to detect magic at will.
• A Spellcaster must know certain low-level spells in order to ever learn/use a higher-level spell--for example, a mage must know burning hands in order to learn fireball, or must know cure minor wounds before learning cure light wounds.
• Spells are essentially just forms of arcane energy with the general properties/appearance of other forms of material/energy (like fire, stone, ice, etc.).
• A Spellcaster often have the Eschew Materials feat, if trained properly.
• Some spells (like resurrection and wish) only exist as incantations;
• A Spellcaster who begins play as one will be more adept at magic use than a character who becomes a spellcaster later on (i.e., begins with another class & then multi-classes into a spellcaster).

Now, I really need help on balancing out these Spellcasters. I have a few ideas, but I'd really appreciate some info/input/feedback from y'all. Some of the ideas may go against the stuff I have written above, but I could easily change a few things to match this.

Idea 1: Spell Point-Based Casters:
First, I've considered using spell points. A spellcaster wouldn't have any limits on # of spells known. However, it'd be more expensive point-wise to spontaneously cast a spell without any sort of spell components than it would to cast a prepared spell, a spell with components, or any combination thereof.

Thus, a spellcaster could spontaneously cast spells, but he/she would run out of spell points faster this way. However, if the caster spents time preparing a spell & using the spell components (material, verbal, &/or somatic) for the spell, then the spell would cost less.

This option seems doable, but it'd eliminate the value of metamagic feats like silent spell & still spell (however, even if a spellcaster spontaneously casts a spell without using any spell components, he/she still faces ASF while in armor).

Idea 2: Limited Spontaneous Spellcasting:
In this version, a spellcaster has no limits on the # of spells known. However, he/she must spent time preparing the spells ahead of time (though not neceassarily using a spellbook or not--just a set amount of time meditating/preparing the magic).

However, the # of spells known chart for the Spellcaster class is used for another purpose--the # of spells known that the Spellcaster can cast spontaneously, without any preparation (and, sort of like a cleric, a spellcaster can opt to drop a prepared spell in order to cast a spell from this list).

Idea 3: Prestige Class for the Beginning Spellcasters Only:
In this version, a special PrC only available for characters who begin play as spellcasters (& properly trained as such) gain several beneifts, like no limit on # of spells known, the ability to detect magic at will, etc. This will be a 10- to 15-level PrC.

Characters who don't begin play as spellcasters, but who multi-class as spellcasters later on, follow the standard spell limits & restrictions for the Spellcaster class.

Idea 4: Prestige Class for the Later-in-Life Spellcasters:
Combined with Idea 1 or 2, this option forbids any characters who don't begin play as spellcasters from multi-classing as spellcasters (basically, the Spellcaster class is a core class only available to 1st-level starting characters). Instead, the may select a special PrC which grants them limited spellcasting ability (like an adept or bard, from 0-lvl. to 5th- or 6th-lvl. spells only).

In addition to this, I may require these later-in-life spellcasters to specialize in a school/aspect of magic (like evocation, healing, fire, etc.), to reflect their limited magical ability & their need to .


In all of these ideas, I intend to keep a few concepts like spell prerequisites (i.e., knowing burning hands in order to learn fireball), restricting certain spells to be available/usable as incantations only, & the arcane magic label (& the chances for ASF while in armor).

Keep in mind that more often than not, the Spellcaster may be the party's only source of offensive, defensive, & curative magics—there’d be heavy demand on these spellcasters to serve as a traditional D&D cleric for the combat-types of the group. (There could be more than 1 spellcaster in a group, but that would mean more unarmored, weaker combatant-types that may need protection from enemies.)

Well, any ideas/opinions/comments/etc. you have to offer? I’d appreciate any help/insight that you could provide.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

bump...

Well, how `bout this:

What class abilities could reasonably made into feats for the generic classes?

What class abilities should remain class abilities only (thus, maybe only available through a PrC for generic class characters)?

 

[Fairome]

I don't know if you're familiar with White Wolf's <i>Mage</i> system, and the subsystem of <i>Sorcerer</i>, but that may be what you're looking for. Obviously, the mechanics would have to be converted, but the Sorcerer system, in flavor fits with Ol' Lieber's world.

Paths are availible to sorcerers, each path growing in power as you advance. All Paths are open, so you could know everytype of spell, but you wouldn't know anything beyond that first level of understanding. Spells can be cast in certain ways, but the more complex the ritual undertaken with the spell, the easier it is to cast.

It's late, I'm not explaining this correctly,. but, if you don't know <i>Sorcerer</i> go, pick up a copy and look through it, to see if it gives you any ideas.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

Yay! A response!

To tell you the truth, I have considered other systems. However, I wanted to try & see what may be viable with some of the existing options in D&D (and in UA).

Also, I'm not adverse to chaging the concept I have going (to a degree) in order to make things a bit more viable. For example:

How about having generic spells, esp. for the generic classes? Stuff like Arcane Blast (like magic missile, but the caster selects what sort of energy is used in the spell). Or Detect Adversary, something in lines with Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos, yet it hinges on the AL of the caster (true Neutral spellcasters would have to pick which one the spell detected).

While such plain vanilla spells may be unappealing to players, I think that it would decrease the sheer # of spells listed, and allow the player a bit more freedom in how his/her PC's spells appear (& function, to a degree).

Or, how about this:

With such a system proposed in the initial post, would the psionics system seem like a better fit? In such a case, would be easier to just have spellcasters select from the psion or psychic warrior power lists instead of the core D&D spellcaster lists from the PHB?

Appreciate the feedback. Just curious to see what may be viable working with the d20 system--it'd just be one heck of a set of house rules, I'll grant ya that.

 

[Fairome]

Appreciate the feedback. Just curious to see what may be viable working with the d20 system--it'd just be one heck of a set of house rules, I'll grant ya that.

Hey, I spent months working on a spell-casting system based on M:tG for 3.0, 'cause I wanted to run a Dominaria campaign. I like big house rules.

Generic spells are a place to start. Yes, they're uninteresting, but they're the basis for other spells. What might be applicable here is some combination of the Sorceror system, basically, the idea of spell-trees, and possibly the guide for spell creation in the DMG. An idea that just occured to me to match the general-mastery of Nehwon mages is to have at least one spells in each school of magic for each path at each level... that may or may not have made sense, but here's how it might look:

Necromancy of the Steppes
1st level: hide from undead (abjuration), unseen servant (conjuration), detect living/detect dead (divination), calm the bones (enchantment), boneburn (evocation), appearance of undeath (illusion), command undead (necromancy), grave soil (transmutation)

(See end of post for spells descriptions.)

All these spells are available as 1st level spells for a spellcaster who is taking the necromancer path. All of them are equivalent to 1st level spells from the PHB, except for the necromantic spell, which is 2nd level.

What I am seeing is that each level of spellcaster class brings another level of advancement in a branch of magic. Thus, having a second-level spells available at first level is fine, and that patterns would continue, with animate dead being availible at 2nd level to a necromanctic caster.

As I typed this up, I had some fond ideas for a campaign of my own, so I might have gotten side-tracked, but, hopefully, it'll give you a basis to start with.

Spells:
hide from undead -as the 1st level cleric spell.

unseen servant -as the spell, but summons a dead spirit to serve you. The servant can't actually be harmed, unlike the force in the original spell, but can be turned.

detect living/detect undead -as per the cleric spell detect undead but can either detect the living creatures in an area, or the undead ones.

calm the bones -as sleep but affects only undead.

boneburn -as burning hands, but inflicts negative energy damage, not fire damage.

appearance of undeath -a touch spells that allows the target to mimic any undead creature up to 4 HD in strength. (Randomly picked that number.) This enchantment fools touch sight hearing and smell, though funk-based supernatural powers, such as a ghast's stench ability, are not imparted by this spell.

command undead -as per the 2nd lvl wizard spell

grave soil -This spell can reduce a corpse of up to Large size into dust within a few minutes.

 

[Khaalis]

Just a few quick thoughts on combining Unlimited Arcana and Spontaneous Casting.

First off, keep in mind that its a new campaign world of YOUR design. If you want all casters to be Spontaneous and have Unlimited Arcana - you can. Its your world. Just keep in mind game balance when designing the rest of the game.

Secondly, I would suggest using the Arcana Unearthed casting setup.

Spellcasters gain 2 "spells per level" lists. The number of spells they can spontaneously cast per day, and the number of spells they can "ready" (prepare) each day to cast spontaneously. Yet, they still have unlimited arcana (as allowed by class). You could grant them a spell library (the total number of spells they know), but they must "ready" a set number of those spells per day from which they can then spontaneously cast spells.

Just a thought.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I'd second Khaalis and say have a look at the Arcana Unearthed system. I'm currently running a campaign using it... Finding it very satisfactory thus far.

A couple of thoughts:

The alternate spells they use could make for a different 'flavour' to the magic system, although can be a little awkward as it's not as familiar as the traditional spells.

You could use the same spells readied/cast system with the core DnD spells, that'd probably work pretty well... But I'd be careful about mixing and matching feats between the two system. You could end up with some real aberations!

 

[AFGNCAAP]

Hmm... sounds like a potential solution. Could someone give me a basic rundown on how magic works in AU? IIRC, there's 3 different levels of spells (based on difficulty or the like, I think). Any more info on it?

Also, I'm not too sure how effective the multiclassing restrictions for spellcasters would be. With the way I'm considering it, players could merely begin as spellcasters at 1st level, then switch over to another class & avoid the feat requirement to multi-class as a spellcaster later (seems a viable option for multi-class warriors, since they start off w/ the same base # of skill points as a spellcaster--experts would really take a hit with this tactic).

I considered giving spellcasters multi-classing restrictions similar to monks & paladins. However, then that would just mean that a character would begin play as a non-spellcaster, then multi-class to spellcaster later on.

I'm also considering the idea of having some feats/class abilities exclusive to characters who start in a particular class. For example, only a starting 1st-level warrior may select the Fighter-Only feats from the PHB (like Weapon Specialization & the like). Or only starting 1st-level spellcasters may have the least restricted form of spellcasting.

Finally, I'm really considering having some class-exclusive PrCs. In some cases, only characters with levels in a particular class can gain a PrC, while in other cases, only characters who don't have any levels in a particular class can gain a PrC. However, I'm not sure that's a great balancing option, esp. since some characters may want to purely progress all the way from 1st to 20th in their starting class.

Basically, I just want to make sure that spellcasters don't wind up being an uber-class over warriors & experts--all should be viable character options for players at any level.

The more that I think about it, I'm considering having the more "unlimited" spellcasters essentially be a members of a PrC (exclusive to characters who begin play as spellcasters); also, I'm considering having multi-classing restrictions for members of the PrC as well (basically, can't take any non-spellcaster-related classes/PrCs, or limiting the # of levels that a members of the PrC can gain in a non-spellcaster class). I'm also thinking about not allowing PrCs like spellsword or arcane trickster, which are intended for multi-class ideas like rogue/wizards or fighter/sorcerers (mystic theurge isn't viable, since there's no divine magic IMC). Would this be a more viable/balanced solution instead?

BTW, what's the earliest any character can gain access to a PrC? From what I've seen, characters usually have to be 5th-6th level before they can meet the requirements for a PrC (and that's for PCs will levels in classes best suited to gain quickest access into the PrC).

 

[Kemrain]

Try a look at the Elements of Magic 2 preview. It sounds a lot like what you're after.

http://www.enworld.org/enpublishing/modules.php?op=modload&name=Web_Links&file=index&req=visit&lid=3

- Kemrain the Free Advertisment.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Also make sure to look into Midnight's magic system. What you described sounds similar to what they have there (with differences, but you can't have everything):

The gods aren't available, so you can't have divine magic (To be precise: There is one god still available, but he's the Enemy and not suitable for Player Charakters, and they really shouldn't be able to play legates at all)

Spellcasting is made via Feats (one general Feat to be able to cast spells generally, and then you must get additional Feats for the schools they want access to. 2 Schools - including evocation - are divided: some spells - in the case of evocation, basically the big hitters - are only available on a somewhat higher level)

If you want to be a real good spellcaster, you'll get the Channeler class - it's the only Spellcasting class for PC's. You can choose your Key ability, and have slightly different abilities depending on your way to use magic.

All spells except those that are only available to clerics and/or paladins are generally available to spellcasters. Channelers get some spells for free, but otherwise you have to pay time and XP for new spells (researching them).

Spellcasting is based on Spell Points. You get your key ability bonus in spell points, channelers get their class level as bonus, and some races and heroic paths further increase your power pool. Once you have used up your spell points for the day, you can burn your constitution for spells (and can only regain that damage - called burn - after rest. Not even a wish would help).

Some more background on that campaign setting: Magic (as well as weapons, written knowledge, and a lot of other things) are illegal, punishable by death. The legates (the dark god's priests) have entities called Astiraces (Astiraxes?), who can possess animals and sense the use of magic in the vicinity.
The material world is surrounded by the Veil which can't be pierced by anything - no interplanar magic (so no teleportation and the like), no gods (so no divine magic), no souls (so the dead have to be dealt with in several ways or they raise again as undead). The only god still around is the one who was cast down by the others and severed the world from the outside. He's the foe and wants nothing less than to destroy the world (and he's winning!)