Nerf the spellcasters!

[Kerrick]

But seriously. There are several discussions on the PF forums about reducing spellcasters' strength in combat, mostly centered around defensive casting. A few people have come close to figuring out why spellcasters became so powerful in d20, but no one's actually hit on it.

But I have. I looked through my 2E PHB the other night trying to find a rule I vaguely recalled (that if you took damage in a round, you couldn't cast a spell). Either I misremembered or it was a house rule, but I DID find out that in previous editions, spellcasters couldn't cast at all if they weren't almost completely still. It specifically spelled out that you couldn't cast from the back of a mount that was moving faster than a walk, if you're riding on a wagon bouncing along a road, or on the deck of a storm-tossed ship. It even says that you couldn't cast while riding in a chariot (!), unless your friends held you steady. Oh yeah, and here's a good one - while casting, you're flat-footed. Try THAT in your d20 game and wait for the uproar!

D20 changed all that with the introduction of the Concentration check. Now, all of a sudden, spellcasters could make a simple check to cast a spell. I mean, come on - DC 10? A L1 novice could make that!

And then we have defensive casting. If you cast defensively, you don't provoke AoOs, even if the ogre is looming right over you. Instead, you get to make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to get it off successfully.

Now don't get me wrong - I love spellcasters (mages in particular), but they've got too much going for them here. So here are some proposed fixes:

1) Ditch defensive casting. If someone wants to cast spells in combat, he can take the AoO. His Concentration check should be more than high enough to handle it. This would keep the squishies out of (melee) combat and make things like Quicken Spell more important.

2) Casters are flat-footed while casting, unless they take the Combat Casting feat (which, of course, would be changed to do so instead of that piddling +4 to Concentration checks).

3) Boost the DCs for casting under hazardous conditions by 5-10 points (vigorous motion is 15, violent motion is 20, etc.)

4) Use the Rule of 3. Yes, I know, I shouldn't spam my variant rules, but it would fix a lot of the problems here - if the spellcaster's Concentration score isn't uber-high, you can keep all the existing numbers and have things work just fine.

Comments? Further ideas?

 

[Hawken]

1) Instead of ditching Defensive Casting, just change the DC to 10 + the attacker's BAB + spell level.

2) I like the idea of casters being flat-footed while casting. Changing Combat Casting to alter that seems like a much better fit. Good idea here.

3) Instead of boosting by a fixed 10-15 points, I'd suggest either flat doubling the DCs listed or add a d20 roll. I prefer the randomness involved here (no two earthquakes shake the same!).

4) I'm still not sold on your Rule of 3, so, no comment on that.

 

[Kerrick]

1) Instead of ditching Defensive Casting, just change the DC to 10 + the attacker's BAB + spell level.

Oh yeah. I think someone else suggested that... I totally forgot about it. That could work.

2) I like the idea of casters being flat-footed while casting. Changing Combat Casting to alter that seems like a much better fit. Good idea here.

I like it too - it makes perfect sense, to me... unless you're casting a stilled spell or a spell with no somatic components, you have to move around and get the gestures just right, which precludes other movement.

3) Instead of boosting by a fixed 10-15 points, I'd suggest either flat doubling the DCs listed or add a d20 roll. I prefer the randomness involved here (no two earthquakes shake the same!).

I considered just doubling the DCs, too, but I thought it might be too much. But then, casting during an earthquake SHOULD be hard, and DC 40 is certainly high enough. Casting while grappled should be changed to DC 10 + opponent's BAB + spell level, I think.

4) I'm still not sold on your Rule of 3, so, no comment on that.

Fair enough.

 

[Hawken]

Actually, for grapple, I was thinking the DC could be 10 + opponent's grapple check + spell level.

Similar to what I suggested for the DC of the Defensive Casting--adding in the BAB, or in this case, the grapple check.

 

[Kerrick]

Actually, for grapple, I was thinking the DC could be 10 + opponent's grapple check + spell level.

Similar to what I suggested for the DC of the Defensive Casting--adding in the BAB, or in this case, the grapple check.

Ouch.

I'm reading the aforementioned thread on the PF forums right now (link, if anyone's interested) and they've got some interesting ideas. Someone brought up this point:

Based on 3.5 only . . .
Mr. Fighter charges Mr. Wizard. Mr. Wizards 5ft steps and casts his spell. Mr. Fighter readies to distract next turn. Now it's Mr. Wizards. He's already 5ft away, and not threatened. DId Mr. Fighter Ready the action? If so, is it to take a step and attack, or to move and get the AoO? Better cast defensively just in case. Mr. Wizard makes his Defensive roll, Mr. Fighter takes a 5ft Step, and makes a Trip Attack.

He just pointed out something I missed - casters taking a 5-foot step and casting a spell. I would therefore suggest that moving before casting a spell incurs a Concentration check - something smaller (say, DC 15) for a 5-foot step, and increasingly larger (10 + feet moved) for actually moving up to your speed. This keeps the wizards from running away from the fighters and thumbing their noses while they get those spells off.

And here's another one:

Also, wizards' high Int gives 'em LOTS of skill points, and Pathfinder puts (a) no 1/2 cap on cross-class skills; (b) no limitations on what Int bonus skills can be used for; and (c) a VERY easy static tumble DC to avoid AoO. The Pathfinder rules sort of suggest that every wizard should also be an acrobat, just so he can tumble around at 30 ft./round, staying out of reach, without ever having to worry about casting defensively in the first place.

Tumbling should impose a heavy penalty on spellcasting, if they can do it all (I'm inclined to say not). It's a lot more violent than simply walking or running, and very hard to focus your will and gather energy to cast a spell.

 

[Hawken]

Ouch, maybe, but a wizard just shouldn't be able to cast a spell when a fighter grabs him and starts choking him out. Not being able to move with full (or even limited range of motion if pinned) and not being able to breathe (and thus able to speak verbal components) while being choked should make it damn near impossible to cast a spell.

If you want an example, find someone accomplished at jiujitsu, let them get a hold of you and then try to sing "itsy bitsy spider" while moving your hands to mimic the gestures that go along with it. Once you're being choked, you've got about 10-15 seconds before you pass out. If you can do that without passing out or getting one of your arms broken, you cast your spell!

As for the move issue, the next time a wizard says he wants to take a 5' step and cast, make him do a Concentration check. He asks why, tell him the 5' step is a Violent (DC 15) or Extremely Violent (DC 20) motion. Granted, at about 5th level and up, the character shouldn't have any problem making the check, but then you could add the attacker's BAB into it.

This solution could hold in the interim, but I think this problem is a result of the rules of AoO, not necessarily a flaw in the wizard class. Similarly, ranged fighters can do the same action to take a 5' step away from threatening targets and pepper their attacker with missiles. So, I think the final solution should come in the form of adjusting the AoO rules and not penalizing any group of classes because they HAVE to "bend" the rules like this just to function in combat.

Regarding skill points, wizards do NOT get a lot of skill points. Yeah, the end up with maybe a 16 or 18 intelligence, or maybe a 20 if they're playing a Drow. But they start off with 2 + int per level this would change that to 5-7 per level, that's a lot compared to the average wizard, whatever the hell that is, but its at best on part with the bard/ranger and still less than a rogue. Also, they have a very limited selection of class skills also. Yes, they could dump them into a lot of Knowledge, but they should anyway. If someone is going to know a lot of stuff it should be wizards.

In this aspect of the game, they should not be penalized at all.

 

[Kerrick]

Ouch, maybe, but a wizard just shouldn't be able to cast a spell when a fighter grabs him and starts choking him out. Not being able to move with full (or even limited range of motion if pinned) and not being able to breathe (and thus able to speak verbal components) while being choked should make it damn near impossible to cast a spell.

If you want an example, find someone accomplished at jiujitsu, let them get a hold of you and then try to sing "itsy bitsy spider" while moving your hands to mimic the gestures that go along with it. Once you're being choked, you've got about 10-15 seconds before you pass out. If you can do that without passing out or getting one of your arms broken, you cast your spell!

True. I played judo in college... if the other person knows what he's doing, it takes about 5 seconds before you're out. 10 + grapple check + spell level sounds reasonable, especially since most casters will have super-high Concentration checks anyway.

This solution could hold in the interim, but I think this problem is a result of the rules of AoO, not necessarily a flaw in the wizard class. Similarly, ranged fighters can do the same action to take a 5' step away from threatening targets and pepper their attacker with missiles. So, I think the final solution should come in the form of adjusting the AoO rules and not penalizing any group of classes because they HAVE to "bend" the rules like this just to function in combat.

That's something else I'm looking at (AoOs, and the reduction thereof). Maybe I'll start another thread...

Regarding skill points, wizards do NOT get a lot of skill points. Yeah, the end up with maybe a 16 or 18 intelligence, or maybe a 20 if they're playing a Drow. But they start off with 2 + int per level this would change that to 5-7 per level, that's a lot compared to the average wizard, whatever the hell that is, but its at best on part with the bard/ranger and still less than a rogue.

True. I use the PF system (skills are 1:1), and wizards get 4 + Int, so they can have really high Tumble. For vanilla 3.5, it's not really a problem - they'll be spending their skill points in things other than Tumble.

 

[Kerrick]

I started to write this in the other thread (AoOs and the 5-foot step), but I thought it would be more appropriate here.

Personally, I'd change defensive casting to be more similar to defensive fighting - it gives you a +4 bonus to Concentration checks. If you cast in combat, you provoke an AoO, and you have to make the check (DC 10 + damage + spell level). It's simple, it's easy to remember, and it's logical - if you get hit from multiple sources, chances are you're going to blow the check and lose the spell. Having to make a check while being threatened is kind of odd, and really the opposite side of the same coin - it's just "this guy's threatening to hit me" instead of "this guy actually HIT me!"

Also, I came up with a solution for spellcasters moving and casting: the base DC is 15, +2 per 5 feet you move. Thus, a 5-foot step is DC 17; making a full move (30 feet) is DC 27. If you tumble, it adds +10. If you cast a silent or still spell, it reduces the DC by 5 (less concentration required).