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[Timespike]

For the Cutting Omen's Martial Caster Stance, is it supposed to be for spells cast as an action that are higher level than a cantrip? Cause I started scouring the rules as soon as I saw that and only restriction I found regarding casting multiple spells in a round with bonus action spells is that the one cast as an action needs to be a cantrip.

As a side question, for the Martialist Warlock (which I love), is there any intent for them to be able to utilize their Eldritch Blast with their maneuvers, similar to the Dread Knight from GPG? Since it occupies the nebulous region of "not a weapon attack" and despite using a spell attack modifier it's "not cast as a spell". Just seems like it would have appropriate to have a clause to be treated a weaponry cantrip for the warlock for interacting with other abilities or something.

Good questions!

For the former, the idea is you can cast a cantrip, a bonus action (leveled) spell, and then something like Counterspell or Shield after you do while in the stance. Normally, casting a bonus action spell would lock that reaction spell down (though obviously you could use your reaction for other things like an attack of opportunity without needing the stance.)

Re: the Martialist: nope, the idea is that they get maneuvers and can use them normally with weapons (provided you select that option instead of the curse at level 1) but not that they use them with Eldritch Blast. If the specific maneuver provides for casting a spell (Battle Mage Stance, for example), then obviously that's an exception.

 

[JerichoPenumbra]

Good questions!

For the former, the idea is you can cast a cantrip, a bonus action (leveled) spell, and then something like Counterspell or Shield after you do while in the stance. Normally, casting a bonus action spell would lock that reaction spell down (though obviously you could use your reaction for other things like an attack of opportunity without needing the stance.) Or a bonus action cantrip, leveled spell, and then a reaction spell.

Re: the Martialist: nope, the idea is that they get maneuvers and can use them normally with weapons (provided you select that option instead of the curse at level 1) but not that they use them with Eldritch Blast. If the specific maneuver provides for casting a spell (Battle Mage Stance, for example), then obviously that's an exception.

Huh, my only follow up question for that first part is where is the lock down clause? Cause I'm not finding it on the tools site. That does sound reminiscent of the swift and immediate actions from 3.5/PF but I was unaware of that clause for A/5e.

Understood. Was just a bit curious, and I figure any other gripes I have about EB in general would be better directed to Josh.

 

[Pedantic]

Huh, my only follow up question for that first part is where is the lock down clause? Cause I'm not finding it on the tools site. That does sound reminiscent of the swift and immediate actions from 3.5/PF but I was unaware of that clause for A/5e.

I also don't believe this is the case. The rules here seem to be specifically about casting bonus action and one action spells in the same turn.

Some spells are cast with a bonus action. A spellcaster can’t cast a spell as a bonus action on the same turn that they cast another spell, unless the second spell is a cantrip with a casting time of one action.

Other spells use a reaction. This type of spell will describe the trigger that allows the spell to be cast. For instance, a wizard may cast shield when hit by an attack or targeted by a magic missile.

Weirdly, if you did cast a reaction spell on your turn (pretty rare, as those are generally more impactful on other turns), it looks like that would prohibit casting a bonus action spell.

 

[Timespike]

Here's the specific language from the tool site:

Some spells are cast with a bonus action. A spellcaster can’t cast a spell as a bonus action on the same turn that they cast another spell, unless the second spell is a cantrip with a casting time of one action.

A spell with a casting time of a reaction cast on the same turn would be another spell that is not a cantrip with a one-action casting time, and therefore prohibited. I should make one small apology, though: the "bonus action cantrip/action spell" variant is a house rule of mine that I conflated for official RAW. I've cut it from the initial post, but want to avoid confusion.

 

[Pedantic]

I think the confusion we're getting into now is around what constitutes a turn. The combat rules make it pretty clear that each creature acting has a separate turn, so your reaction is always going to fall outside of the same turn you used a bonus action and a single action spell, unless you're in the rare situation you're so using a reaction on your turn directly.

I think that can only happen in A5E if you're taking a reaction in response to an attack of opportunity you've triggered on your turn, or if you fall off something and cast feather fall on your turn.

 

[Steampunkette]

I think the big issue of the "Two spells per turn" rule is, and has ever been, Counterspell.

"I cast Fireball."
"I Counterspell it."
"I Counterspell your Counterspell with my reaction on my turn the same turn I cast Fireball!"

And to a lesser extent, Hellish Rebuke and Shield.

"I cast Bless!"
"I use my readied action to hit you and force a concentration check."
"I use my reaction to cast Shield on the same turn as Bless!"

Maybe it's not -intended- to cover reactions... but it kind of feels like it should? Because otherwise Counterspell doesn't -protect- you from spells you counter, it just costs you and the enemy an extra spell slot.

 

[Timespike]

I think the big issue of the "Two spells per turn" rule is, and has ever been, Counterspell.

"I cast Fireball."
"I Counterspell it."
"I Counterspell your Counterspell with my reaction on my turn the same turn I cast Fireball!"

And to a lesser extent, Hellish Rebuke and Shield.

"I cast Bless!"
"I use my readied action to hit you and force a concentration check."
"I use my reaction to cast Shield on the same turn as Bless!"

Maybe it's not -intended- to cover reactions... but it kind of feels like it should? Because otherwise Counterspell doesn't -protect- you from spells you counter, it just costs you and the enemy an extra spell slot.

THIS.

I could not have put it better myself.

 

[JerichoPenumbra]

I see your point, though I don't quite agree completely. Yes, it would suck to attempt do something only to have it fizzle out, however chunk of groups I've played with would still consider the above examples technically net positives since you're forcing the enemy to expend more resources to accomplish what they want. Ideally of course you prevent them from doing it, but if you can't stop them then make it more difficult. Though I will point out that those theoreticals aren't necessarily bad when they happen every now and again, but it they're happening all the time, it sounds more like an issue with encounter design/ Player(s) vs. GM. And that fact that counterspells can still potentially fail, just like how shield may not always protect you either.

But to restate things: rules as written it is entirely possible to in effect cast 3 spells in a round. A cantrip as an action and a bonus action spell (in either order) during your turn, and potentially a reaction spell between the top and bottom of the round, during a point in time that is not your turn.

I've interpreted casting multiple spells in a round as being more limited by the total actions you have to take, and usually we can at most have 3 in bas. For example, with core Level Up it's possible to make an anti-mage battlemage that can Counterspell potentially 4 times in a round, 5 (in technical scope) if they have help from a buddy to set up. High Martial 8 to get Heightened Reflexes from Mirror's Glint and then a Caster that gets counterspell the rest of the way. When the build first really comes on at 13th level they'll only be able to toss two counters in a given combat (and for the day unless they're a warlock), but their capability to say "Hell no" to magic increases as their level goes up. The extra potential from a buddy is by being subjected to the Back to Back maneuver from Sanguine Knot and using the extra martial reaction for a Tempered Iron reaction like Defy Magic or Break Spell. The material in MoAR Vol 4 just makes this possible to do single classed and provides an alternative reaction maneuver through Dissipating Counter.

Also as a sidenote for you Timespike if you weren't aware: page 19 the formatting for the Stranger than Fiction side table and the paragraphs for lantern Shield seems to have spazzed out.

 

[JerichoPenumbra]

Also minor thing I noticed, A5e Counterspell has a clause that the person who was counter spelled can spend reaction to weave the frayed magic together and cast a new spell (at half original level) using that energy. So counterspells aren't the absolute no's they used to be in O5e.

"I cast Fireball."
"I Counterspell it."
"I weave the frayed magic with my reaction to Magic Missile your face."

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Also minor thing I noticed, A5e Counterspell has a clause that the person who was counter spelled can spend reaction to weave the frayed magic together and cast a new spell (at half original level) using that energy. So counterspells aren't the absolute no's they used to be in O5e.

"I cast Fireball."
"I Counterspell it."
"I weave the frayed magic with my reaction to Magic Missile your face."

of course, if there's a second caster with counterspell, then...
"I cast Fireball."
"Counterspell."
"I weave the frayed magic into a Magic Missile."
"Counterspell."
"GOD--"